Why you should be nice to axolotls

[Azhael]

God has been protecting us from "evolving bacteria tribes", how can you possibly think that we could still be alive today if he wasn't? -Seth

Natural selection, inmune systems and in recent history, antibiotics.

 

[CJ1981]

A couple years ago when i was in grade 9 my science teacher was teaching the Big Bag Theory and evolution.

Sorry I mean no disrespect to you or your beliefs and I appreciate that this was a typo but I love the concept of a Big Bag Theory. I have a wonderful mental picture of the earth and all of it's inhabitants emerging from my Grandma's knitting bag :happy:

 

[sde]

Darwin didn't even discover Lucy! She was discovered in 1974 by a French geologist 91 years after Darwin died. Are you even going to fact-check yourself before you try and have a "debate" with people who clearly have an infinitely better understanding of evolution? At least be educated about it. Also, Darwin admitted nothing discounting evolution on his death bed. That is one of the most basic lies that creationists like to spread. They like to say similar things about Carl Sagan and any other person who has ever said anything that they disagreed with. They'll probably try to say the same thing when Hawking or Dawkins die.


Ok, I admit, I thought Darwin discovered Lucy, that is what I have been hearing since a small kid. As well as that he admitted it on his death bed, that is what I have always been hearing.




You expecting us to take you seriously when you refuse to hear any facts is one thing, but expecting a reasonable debate after you say that is absolutely ridiculous, and not to be offensive, but it makes it very clear just how poorly educated you are on this subject.



I refuse to hear any facts? I have been asking for facts, not refusing to hear them.



Australopithecus afarensis was never "debunked" and certainly wasn't a "human and monkey" bone. First of all, multiple specimens of Australopithecus have been found, and Lucy is FAR more than two random bones pushed together. They have the better part of her skeleton, including fragments of the skull and pelvic bones.


See, what I don't get is that they think it is a "missing link". Why could it not just be a human? I just watched a video the other day that showed how humans have "modified" their bodies ( flattening of children's skulls etc. ). So why could it not be a human? or even a chimpanzee like monkey?




Also



If this is your mindset, you will never be a scientist. Because even with irrefutable evidence, you've already stated that your mind cannot be made to change. This is the antithesis of everything that science and scholarly minds stand for. I honestly hope you outgrow this childish position, as I did.



First off I don't think what you guys have brought up is irrefutable. Just because I wont budge on my religion/faith doesn't mean that I am unable to change. and I admit, I don't like being wrong ( lol ), but that does not mean I can change. Sooooo, you think it is childish. I think it is common sense for someone to believe in God at some point in time. See here is the thing, why would anyone hold on to the idea of God and a creator if there is no reason too? See, I wouldn't still be a Christian if I didn't think I was getting anything from it. why would I? No one would be Christian anymore. Everyone would believe in evolution. But that is not the case. lots of people still believe in God, because there is benefit. The "idea" of God has been around for a long time, if there was no benefit it probably wouldn't still be around. Now you can call the benefit coincidence, but I wouldn't. I have seen/heard/found to much. that is just my opinion.




One of the biggest problems with "creation science" and "scientists" who back it is that they did not start with a question. You see, in science a person must have a question about something. "How does that work? Why do apples fall? What is the sun made of? Why does Mars appear to retrograde? How did there come to be so many species on the Earth?" You must first ask a question and then try to figure out the answer, going wherever the evidence takes you. With "creation science" they started with the answer they wanted, and then they picked the evidence that was convenient and spun it with the intention of supporting their own answers, ignoring any evidence to the counter.





And you don't think that scientists that do believe in evolution have done this?


If all of human knowledge were wiped out today, if every single bit of what we know were gone and we had to start completely from scratch, the idea of creationism, including any creation myths that originate from religions, would be gone. Civilizations who arose after us would never have any clue that some of us though the world was 6,000 years old and that every creature simply appeared into being as it is. No one would ever know about a story in which a talking snake tricked two people into the fall of mankind.

But they would be able to, over time, figure out what science has discovered. They would see the diversity, wonder how it came to be, they would ask questions and find evidence and would eventually arrive at the same conclusion that the curious and the thinkers of our species have: evolution.



Why don't you think they would think of God too? Or just God or something?



You can keep thinking that you know better than thousands of peer-reviewed professionals, and you can keep thinking that the entire scientific community of the world has some kind of mad conspiracy to disprove your religion's creation myth and your religion's god, but frankly I'm done here because not only have you shown that you know absolutely nothing valid on this topic, you've also shown that you have absolutely zero interest in learning about it, and if you have no actual desire to learn then I have nothing else to say here.

I can tell you one thing, it totally seems like they have a "mad conspiracy" against Christians. it seems like everyone does. They take praying out of schools. but not non Christian praying, that is fine. They take a statue/model type thing of the ten commandment out from in front of the white house/ some place like that ( I don't remember which one, but it doesn't really matter. it was a official like place ). They break what we were founded on. < that one P.O.'s me. I thought this was supposed to be a free country, with free religion. That is the mane reason why the pilgrims came here. because they didn't have free religion. And so they mad it a country with free religion. It sure doesn't feel like that anymore. YOU may not be in a "mad conspiracy" against Christians, but it seems like all the officials and such are.

I don't want to make all you guys mad ( though I am sure I already have ), but I just disagree. isn't that ok? but really, what are we "debating for anyway, neither of us are going to budge. So maybe we could try to drop it. just my thoughts. -Seth

 

[Azhael]

Nobody has taken prayer out of american schools. You and everybody else are perfectly free to pray if you choose to (I know this and i´m not even from your country). What has been taken out are the unconstitutional, institution enforced prayers precisely because individual religious liberties including the absence of religion must be respected. You live in a secular country and the only way you can have plurality and freedom of and from religion is if state institutions don´t enforce specific religious views. A school cannot make you pray, but as an individual you can choose to do so if that´s what you want.
If you want your freedoms to be respected you have to start by respecting the freedoms of others.

 

[willowcat]

I will look at the link. I thank you for it. I have asked for proof. No one has offered to give their idea of proof. I am not hammering or condemning anyone for their beliefs. I ask for proof of a theory. Thats all I asked for. So this has proof, correct?

 

[AfroNewtkeeper]

I will look at the link. I thank you for it. I have asked for proof. No one has offered to give their idea of proof. I am not hammering or condemning anyone for their beliefs. I ask for proof of a theory. Thats all I asked for. So this has proof, correct?

... No offense or anything, I really don't want to fuel this fight, but plenty of the posts on this thread have offered proof. If you ask me, this is the most ignorant post on this idiotic thread. I suppose you just haven't accepted any of this as proof until now. I have NOTHING against religion, but I honestly believe that intelligent design is bullcrap. While there are certainly things that science hasn't been able to prove yet (ex. the Big Bang theory), evolution is backed by atleast 95% of the world's scientists. Would you call those men and women liars? Look, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, but if you educate yourself on the subject, you'll see how much sense it makes. That's why I believe in evolution. It isn't a sin or anything. I understand you believe in Christianity just as much as any atheist believes in evolution.

I'm sure you think I'm nuts for thinking this, but I have just one question that I want you to try and answer. Science can't explain how the universe began yet. Right? The Big Bang Theory states that a tiny, incredibly dense ball of matter exploded into the giant, infinitely expanding universe we know today. To know how this worked, you'd have to study all the complex physics involved. But where did that ball of matter come from? We can't answer that.

My question for you is: Where did God come from? That's my only question. Can you explain that any more than I can explain the Big Bang theory?

 

[EmbryH]

Nobody has taken prayer out of american schools. You and everybody else are perfectly free to pray if you choose to (I know this and i´m not even from your country). What has been taken out are the unconstitutional, institution enforced prayers precisely because individual religious liberties including the absence of religion must be respected. You live in a secular country and the only way you can have plurality and freedom of and from religion is if state institutions don´t enforce specific religious views. A school cannot make you pray, but as an individual you can choose to do so if that´s what you want.
If you want your freedoms to be respected you have to start by respecting the freedoms of others.

Thank you.

People in this country think that if they are not able to have their personal beliefs be front, center, and forced onto everyone else, then their rights are being threatened. Just because a teacher isn't allowed to make their students participate in a Christian prayer doesn't mean that students aren't allowed to pray or observe their own religions in schools. It just means that people aren't forced or obliged to participate or be subjected to religious beliefs they don't share.

Of course our country still has "In God we trust" on the money (unconstitutional) and "under God" in the pledge (also unconstitutional).

There are states where you can be fired for being an atheist. Some states have it law that an atheist cannot hold public office. Adoption agencies can deny you the ability of adopting a child because you're an atheist. There are three times more churches than schools in this country. You've never had a president who wasn't Christian. A public official being openly atheist is a big deal here and people actually question their ability to lead.

Please do not act like the religious freedoms of Christians is in any way threatened. They're not, and acting like they are when all you're complaining about is people refusing to let you stand on THEIR rights is just ignorant and entitled.

 

[willowcat]

Have I brought politics into this? No. Again, I do not condemn you for your belief. I ask again. Give me proof. Don't counter with insults. Why are you mad? I would rather discuss the topics than have you become offended. I never said you were wrong. I said show me. period.

 

[EmbryH]

Ok, I admit, I thought Darwin discovered Lucy, that is what I have been hearing since a small kid. As well as that he admitted it on his death bed, that is what I have always been hearing.

Then did it ever occur to you that perhaps certain other things you've been hearing since you were a child might also be incredibly incorrect??? Did you ever think to investigate such things for yourself?????

 

[usafaux2004]

I can tell you one thing, it totally seems like they have a "mad conspiracy" against Christians. it seems like everyone does. They take praying out of schools. but not non Christian praying, that is fine. They take a statue/model type thing of the ten commandment out from in front of the white house/ some place like that ( I don't remember which one, but it doesn't really matter. it was a official like place ). They break what we were founded on. < that one P.O.'s me. I thought this was supposed to be a free country, with free religion. That is the mane reason why the pilgrims came here. because they didn't have free religion. And so they mad it a country with free religion. It sure doesn't feel like that anymore. YOU may not be in a "mad conspiracy" against Christians, but it seems like all the officials and such are

Oh. Come. On!

Prayer was never part of a school, and I ask you to show me where in the constitution structured Christian prayer is called for. You should probably know, as a Christian, that the 10 Commandments are laws, and in the US, the Supreme Court is the highest court of the land. You should also know that the government is FORBIDDEN by the constitution from creating, establishing, or supporting a religion over others. That is why the commandments were removed from the SCOTUS. Not because of some war on the poor little Christians who comprise maybe 70-75% of this country. And for the love of everything you don't know, this country was NOT founded on Christian anything.

Believe it or not, this IS a free country, and you DO have freedom of religion. As long as you're not breaking any laws, hurting others, or being a menace to society, you are FREE to do whatever you like and you are FREE to believe, establish, and practice any faith you choose.

 

[EmbryH]

Have I brought politics into this? No. Again, I do not condemn you for your belief. I ask again. Give me proof. Don't counter with insults. Why are you mad? I would rather discuss the topics than have you become offended. I never said you were wrong. I said show me. period.

Unfortunately it IS offensive when people claim to be the victim of a situation when, in fact, they are members of the privileged group, particularly when they act with the assumption that the country was made for and by them, regardless of reality.

Also highly informative links have been provided for you. If you want to learn something, you'll have to actually read it. Here's a good place to start.

An argument isn't something that I'm after, nor am I trying to offend or attack anyone, but honestly it's very easy to grow tired of a large portion of my fellow citizens believing and defending such absurdities while refusing to acknowledge reason. I'm all for diplomacy, but frankly creation science and intelligent design are objectively wrong. People can try to deny it and they can ignore facts and hone in on anything that looks like it might support their side, but niceties aside, those ideas are still wrong.

Again, I understand how intelligent, young students can be grossly misinformed by well-meaning yet ignorant educators (be they teachers or parents or mentors, ect), but that doesn't mean that one can make outrageous and extraordinary claims, give no valid support for such claims, smugly ignore any attempts from others to explain these vital concepts, and not expect people to become impatient with such absurd antics.

Again, here are links to articles that plainly explain everything. Understand that the information here is highly supported by evidence, has been rigorously peer-reviewed by professionals of the scientific community, and has found to be consistent and true in multiple different instances of study. It is not something that can be dismissed by merely saying "that's an opinion, that was debunked, that isn't true." If you have valid and curious questions about any points in these articles, perhaps for a more clear explanation, I'm sure the members here would be more than happy to oblige. But honestly, it's time that Americans and others who still blindly believe in creation science to stop being so deeply rooted in denial that they literally bend even the basic meanings of words to try and steer the evidence in their favor. It's not going to happen, it doesn't work, and the entire rest of the world already knows this.

 

[Azhael]

... No offense or anything, I really don't want to fuel this fight, but plenty of the posts on this thread have offered proof. If you ask me, this is the most ignorant post on this idiotic thread. I suppose you just haven't accepted any of this as proof until now. I have NOTHING against religion, but I honestly believe that intelligent design is bullcrap. While there are certainly things that science hasn't been able to prove yet (ex. the Big Bang theory), evolution is backed by atleast 95% of the world's scientists. Would you call those men and women liars? Look, I'm not trying to convert anyone here, but if you educate yourself on the subject, you'll see how much sense it makes. That's why I believe in evolution. It isn't a sin or anything. I understand you believe in Christianity just as much as any atheist believes in evolution.

I'm sure you think I'm nuts for thinking this, but I have just one question that I want you to try and answer. Science can't explain how the universe began yet. Right? The Big Bang Theory states that a tiny, incredibly dense ball of matter exploded into the giant, infinitely expanding universe we know today. To know how this worked, you'd have to study all the complex physics involved. But where did that ball of matter come from? We can't answer that.

My question for you is: Where did God come from? That's my only question. Can you explain that any more than I can explain the Big Bang theory?

Ok, this thread is not going to last, but before it goes i can´t help myself, i need to comment on some things you and others have said.
First off, "proof" is a mathematical construct. In the hard sciences what we have is evidence (defined as a fact which supports a single hypothesis). You don´t prove things in Biology (that´s a colloquialism that has no place in rigurous scientific discussion), you substantiate them with evidence and evolutionary theory is extraordinarily well supported by all fields of Biology to the point that denying it is perverse. It is a body of work which accounts and provides an explanation for biological facts and which makes excellent testable predictions.

The Big Bang Theory has been confirmed by the predicted observation of background radiation.

Atheists do not accept the claim "gods exist" as a true statement. That´s it. There is nothing there that requires you to accept evolution, the same as there is nothing there that requires you to accept heliocentrism or naturalism. The reason why most atheists accept the fact of evolution (although not necessarily have a sophisticated understanding of the scientific theory) is because most atheists also tend to have a decent basic education and tend to be skeptics and empiricists. It has to be said that in developed countries outside of the US most religious people also accept evolution.
Also, the phrasing of your comment "you believe in Christianity just as much as any atheist believes in evolution." creates the very false implication that both are equal and that acceptance of evolution is just another faith based belief when it is most certainly not, it is an evidence based belief like heliocentrism, atomic theory or that the earth is an oblate spheroid. All supported by such a gigantic body of evidence that again, to deny them is simply perverse.

Willowcat, in addition to AfroNewtKeepers excellent question (which unfortunately is usually non-answered by claiming god is the uncaused cause that always existed - a bold, unsupported speculation and a special pleading fallacy-) i would also like you to substitute "god" by "magical universe creating fairies" in your post. You´ll find that both have the same explanatory power, that is zero, and that both are equally supported by evidence, again, zero. There is nothing that allows you to discriminate between those two options because neither are supported or based on any evidence, therefore the veracity of either is equally untestable (and by definition uncomfirmable). "God" has no explanatory power whatsoever. Inventing a creature so that you can put a label on something that you don´t understand does not provide you with a solution, it provides you with a pointless pacifier. When there is an unknown, the intellectually honest thing to do is to say "i don´t know" and then see if there is anything that can be done to find out. What you have done is the very definition of an argument from ignorance fallacy (a formal logical fallacy, not a stab at you) which applied to this case is basically "i don´t know something, therefore god". I hope you can see that that is a dishonest and rationally indefensible thing to do.

Edit: The misnomer "creation science" peeves me so incredibly much...It´s not just that it is not even remotely scientific, it´s also that they are trying to co-opt the obvious value and validity of science while at the same time denying it. There are no words....no words....

 

[pondweed]

Oh dear, I can't decide whether to get involved or not. What the hell.

Willowcat, if your faith is strong enough, it wouldn't hurt you to read Richard Dawkins's book The Greatest Show on Earth, which lays out the evidence for evolution. We don't even *need* the fossil record for evidence; studies in genetics and embryology are more than ample. And we can see natural selection in action across generations in bacterial cultures and in guppies, and also extrapolate from artificial selection in breeding for selected traits (the Siberian silver fox experiments.)

Ironically enough, some great evidence for speciation comes from salamanders. I'll just leave this here.

Evolution is a magnificent, well-supported explanation for the diversity of organisms on the planet. I got shivers when I finally understood how all the evidence fits together. And it really needn't exclude God; you could well believe that a Deity is the driving force behind genetic mutation that natural selection subsequently acts on.

I'm personally quite content with the idea we don't know everything about the Universe and the mechanisms that drive it, but I hope scientists keep digging for answers. This coming from an art student with a lazy interest in the natural world.

 

[geron]

All I have seen on this thread so far -

Darwinists: "Links to evidence"

Creationist: "But wheres the proof?"

So this has me wondering, what proof can a creationist use to validate their "hypothesis" of young earth other than "jesus did it"?

@willowcat I didn't get to check out the videos since i'm visiting family in the boonies with not so great internet.

 

[Azhael]

For the record i´m not a darwinist. At best a neo-darwinist if that´s how you would like to label people who accept the modern evolutionary synthesis (although the point of doing so with such a label scapes me). It may seem nitpicky but the field has progressed a huge deal since the days of Darwin (for example he never knew about genetics which is kind of a big deal in biology these days xD not to mention the entire basis on which the concept of biological evolution hinges).

 

[AfroNewtkeeper]

Willowcat, in addition to AfroNewtKeepers excellent question (which unfortunately is usually non-answered by claiming god is the uncaused cause that always existed - a bold, unsupported speculation and a special pleading fallacy-) i would also like you to substitute "god" by "magical universe creating fairies" in your post.

Like the almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

[Chinadog]

That's blasphemy! it's linguine not spaghetti!

 

[geron]

@Azhael - I'm not too big on labels, so I was just trying to be vague. Thanks for the correction though.

 

[willowcat]

Geron, are you anywhere near Glenrose Tx.? That is the home to the Creation Museum of Texas. The director use to have a TV show, (maybe still does). He is a panleontologist. He was an atheist. (I have nothing against atheists). I am pretty sure that I have heard him say that he was an atheist that set out to disprove the existence of God. But, his journey and the facts 'opened' his eyes. He probably can be found on you-tube too. Now, if you or anyone else 'likes' his info, I have names of geologists and anthropologist, that set out to do the same thing and ended up having their 'thinking' changed. Now for the rest of.you, I cannot understand why you are letting the emotion of anger and hate control you. I have not attacked, smeared, condemned, reviled, or said any hurtful thing to anyone. Everyone is firing on me, to prove what? Also, to let you know you are not hurting me or making me mad. It saddens me that we (educated, bright, humans) can not discuss a topic because of our tunnel vision thinking. No....I don't expect anyone to wake up in the morning and say......."Boy, is my thinking all wrong......everyone one else is right and I am wrong". Instead of anger and hate lets try compassion and Love. Love? Ask yourself what is Love? Its not a feeling or an emotion. What is it then? Come on now.....I know they don't teach this in any school. Love is a Spirit. That' correct. A Spirit. We as human beings are a tri-part being. Spirit, Soul and Body. So when a person lets emotions govern their thinking, they are letting their Soul govern their thinking. No...No...we "should" be using our Spirit, (heart, person, who we are) govern our emotions and control our bodies. Boy oh boy, I can here all of you scream now. What or who is God? The True God. The 'Truth", He is a Spirit. The Spirit of Love.

Here is the post: http://184.154.224.5/~creatio1/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=21

 

[Azhael]

Just going to pop this in here because this thread is basically living up to the definition.

ev·o·lu·tion
noun
1. the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection

2. the gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.

The second one is what my science teacher in high school told me. Evolution is pretty simple ie this thread has evolved from discussing axolotls into a battle over evolution. That's all.

The first definition is strange since it doesn´t actually define biological evolution, it just links it to common descent, the central fact of biology.

The second one is flat out incorrect. Evolution is not about development, it´s about population genetics. Individuals don´t evolve, populations do. Also it hints at evolution as being an increase in complexity which is wrong as parasitic organisms nicely demonstrate.

The simplest, most practical definition i tipically hear for biological evolution is "changes in genetic frequencies in a population over time". That usually works quite well.

Unfortunately evolutionary theory is taught quite badly even by teachers who accept it which is strange since although it gets quite complicated, the basics are really simple and easy to grasp. What´s really unfortunate is that everybody thinks they understand it, but in reality most people are quite wrong. My understanding of it was terribly flawed when i finished highschool, too (not that now i´m done learning) it sometimes amuses me how wrong i used to have it. This is by far the most common scenario...it´s very unfortunate although not very surprising since after all i accept Einstein´s theory of relavitivty but if you asked me to define it i´d embarrash myself.

Anyway, i´m sorry if i´m coming off as nitpicky and pedantic but as i said this thread won´t last long and before it´s shut down and i´m told off for not doing it myself i want to take the opportunity to share some information on a subject that i´m passionate about and that i think is very important and very much worth the trouble.