Species mixing

[Ed]

Ed:
At its most basic, I would say longevity to begin with. Mark's proposal of a full or near full life span yardstick has merit but falls short in that this would limit it to only keepers who get full life spans on a regular basis out of their single species setups. So we would need to come up with a milestone mark in years as an initial criterion. In addition, there's quality of life. Do they appear healthy, do they appear unstressed, are they feeding with normal vigor and volume? Finally, do they behave in a manor commensurate with expectations for that species allowing of course for normal individual variation? Admittedly, some of this will be subjective.

Let me repeat the criteria that are commonly used in Zoos and aquaria to define how well animal care is viewed.

1) keeping the animal consistently alive
2) keeping the animal consistently alive long enough to breed
3) keeping the animal consistently alive long enough to get the median longevity to approach maximal longevity
4) meeting 3 above while consistently reproducing the animal sufficently to replace losses due to death
5) meeting 3 and 4 above while having the animal consistently demostrate the maximal amount of normal behaviors

If we are to have the best interest of the animals at the heart of the discussion then we cannot seperate the lifespans from single species enclosures from multispecies enclosures as properly set-up and maintained they should be similar if not the same. If the life span of a species in a multispeces enclosure are falling short of the median and/or none of the animals approach the maximal lifespan then the entire husbandry of that enclosure needs to be reviewed to determine where there are insufficiencies as the lifespan is providing a sign post that there is a problem.

Simply using life span is insufficient as you noted, however even using life span plus breeding is an insufficient method of measuring success.. it is only when you take into account the addition of maximizing naturalistic behaviors that we can achieve an optimal bench mark. The final one is relatively recent in the history of animal keeping as until the late 1980s and early 1990s, life span and breeding were considered sufficient to measure success and appropriate care however at that time, sterotypical behaviors and lack of naturalistic behaviors were recognized as issues that demonstrated that there were still inadequacies in the care of animals.
(For those who are interested I would suggest reading Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (see http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...+captive+reptiles"+&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholarr_)

So lifespan can be an indicator of inadequacies in husbandry, long lifespan in and of itself is not sufficient to demostrate success.

As to your territorial snout biting mention: Would that not also occur in same species setups?

In single species enclosures, it is much more easy to manage the interactions of a population (as these are going to much more well known) to reduce this to a level that is the same or below that would occur in nature. For example, in P. cinereus, territorial size is a function of cover object, moisture, and food resources. Better food resources reduce territorial size, cover object reduces territorial size, moisture levels can increase and/or decrease territorial size (refer to the copious literature by Jaeger etal).
These interactions are going to be less obvious in multispecies enclosures, for example to step away from caudates for a moment, in dendrobatid frogs, territorial issues are triggered by animals that are of similar shape and behavior, which also appears to be the case for caudates (and its hard to find a caudate that is not caudate shaped while in frogs, hylids are different in behavior and somewhat in shape from dendrobatids...)

Some comments,

Ed

 

[Ed]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to get feedback on my example in particular.

I haven't forgotten your example, I'm just not ready to say anything until we have an understanding of some standards...

Ed

 

[fishkeeper]

No comments on the mix I proposed?(Gold dust newts plus Golden treefrogs?) Or is that also impossible.

With caudates and other amphibians, I think we are at 4. Newts and frogs live very long in captivity for the most part and are bred successfully(let me throw new/tricky species out the window). However, hobbyists often do not allow certain behaviors(hunting, terrestrial living) to be exhibited.

Actually, most caudates grow much faster in captivity than in the wild. Would this be success? Or do you want your animals maturing at the same rate as wild animals?

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Malduroque,

I think this forum is a wonderful resource. Although members here are from all walks of life, i do think the vast majority are rational, sensible and reasonable people. A lot of people here also have a scientific background and hence want to ensure appropriate and accurate information is given out to novice hobbyists so as to protect the welfare of the animal. These are all well-meaning good intentions. I think the crux of the matter here is the approach whereby the information is communicated.

An amiable, structured and scientific approach to communication is essential if we want to express our opinions and viewpoints across and to captivate our readers and audience. A discussion can allow us to advance our understanding and knowledge and direct us to areas where more research is warranted. Thus, a different perspective is not be a bad thing. However, using language that incite, patronizes or berates, undermines the communication efforts. The content is not effectively delivered as it is obscured by intense emotions.

There are also children who use this site as an educational resource and such forms of language and communications are not conducive to their learning.

I respect your experience and generosity in sharing your viewpoints, however, it would be to everyone's benefit if some courtesy and respect is present.

Regards.

 

[fishkeeper]

Another thing to keep in mind is as you add more species how do they use space? In terrestrial enclosures the animals can't float in air so the bigger the enclosure gets the proportionally less surface area the creatures can use is available(this is somewhat contrary to many stocking suggestions which allow more creatures per gallon as the tank gets bigger). Also with more animals/bigger tank stuff such as aggression and territories can change. In a bigger enclosure animals may be more likely to try to claim territories. This is really not much of a problem with newts but keep in mind with mixes that many newts have overenthusiastic feeding responses so too many individuals(or different sp.) can result in injury during a feeding frenzy.

Areas of the tank that the animals inhabit must also be kept in mind...(whether an animal is arboreal or terrestrial, or aquatic, or whether an animal is diurnal or nocturnal). But it is unwise to put two animals together in an enclosure thinking they will never come across each other due to habitats being different...or to compromise one species habitat/space requirements for another(such as putting a species that does not live near water naturally in a tank with a water section to accomodate another species). A personal example is when I was young I had a 10 gallon tank that got some assorted animals I found...at one point it housed a toad, a fish, and some tadpoles. The toad spent his time on rock land section which he would be fed on, but not do much else(if scared by an approaching person he would jump into the water but would immediately get back on the land section...though he soon recognized be as the provider of food). I'm sure he appreciated the extra roaming room/hiding when he was released!

 

[John]

I take back what I said about the tree frogs. I was keeping juvenile Barking Tree Frogs (Hyla gratiosa) with some juvenile Eastern Gray Tree Frogs (Hyla versicolor). The Grays disappeared recently when I missed some feeding days.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

I take back what I said about the tree frogs. I was keeping juvenile Barking Tree Frogs (Hyla gratiosa) with some juvenile Eastern Gray Tree Frogs (Hyla versicolor). The Grays disappeared recently when I missed some feeding days.

Barking tree frogs are almost as bad as Cuban tree frogs when it comes to eating anything that moves. I learned this at the expense of some juvenile green anoles.

 

[SGlogi]

what about mixing sub-species? like japanese, chinese, ect. of fire-bellies? or of closely related species?

 

[Jennewt]

what about mixing sub-species? like japanese, chinese, ect. of fire-bellies? or of closely related species?

Japanese and chinese firebellies are separate species, and many taxonomists believe they should even be seperate genera. They aren't as closely related as you might think.

Regarding true subspecies... if you had a single-sex group, and they met other compatibility issues (same sizes, a non-aggressive species, already quarantined, etc) there would be nothing wrong with mixing them. But subspecies can almost always interbreed, so mixing genders will produce hybrid offspring, and that's something I would really discourage anyone from doing.

 

[KiwiPhotography]

wowzaz.
I find it kind of ridiculous how the 'higher up' people on here are so sensitive... I mean really, chill out!
Don't take everything so personally, it's like everyone is in there own attack position ready to claw eachothers eyes out.
shhheshh.

 

[John]

wowzaz.
I find it kind of ridiculous how the 'higher up' people on here are so sensitive... I mean really, chill out!
Don't take everything so personally, it's like everyone is in there own attack position ready to claw eachothers eyes out.
shhheshh.

Very amusing. You should give everything you just said as advice to yourself, not Jen.

 

[Mac Myers]

wowzaz.
I find it kind of ridiculous how the 'higher up' people on here are so sensitive... I mean really, chill out!
Don't take everything so personally, it's like everyone is in there own attack position ready to claw eachothers eyes out.
shhheshh.

Nice Zombie thread too. Heh....You brought it back from the dead for that?

 

[deliriah]

Nice Zombie thread too. Heh....You brought it back from the dead for that?

Zombie thread? It may be contagious, Mac. Before you know it all the threads we thought long dead will be back to haunt us! But I agree what's with the sudden reserrection?

 

[tmarmoratus]

I actually missed this one the first time around, so in a way I'm glad it was brought back up. The only thing I didn't have that would've made reading this thread complete was a big bowl of popcorn.

 

[deliriah]

Actually Jeff I'm kinda happy it was too. I started it before work and had to tear myself away and leave by the time I got to the second page. Got home and picked up where I left off. Popcorn would have helped, but quite the interesting post, showing differing opinions and all. I believe it could have been accomplished without all the bashing of the "higher ups"...But I guess we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

[FRANCOIS]

I was once in Brittany in France and went to look for salamanders and newts in a beautiful forest. We checked under logs and moss etc.... that was in August. Upon turning some moss upside down we found a young adult triturus mormoratus cuddled next to a fire salamander of the same size.... these guys share the same habitat there....
Just wanted to share this little story.... ;-)
Francois

 

[John]

went to look for salamanders and newts in a beautiful forest.<snip> these guys share the same habitat there....

And by sharing a forest, they have the space to get well away from each other if they wish. There aren't many terrariums that offer as much room as a forest.

 

[FRANCOIS]

Indeed, but they were together, so I am not too sure to see / get your point...

 

[John]

Indeed, but they were together, so I am not too sure to see / get your point...

This thread is about mixing species in captivity. Not the same as the wild - much more confined and the animals are forced together.

 

[FRANCOIS]

I think I read what it's about.