Species mixing

[malduroque]

John: Your bat, your ball, your playing field. I understand. Though it's difficult for me not to be sarcastic under almost any circumstances, I will play nicer from now on. Besides, this thread seems to be winding down and I don't have any other controversial topics in the oven unless extolling the virtues of Zoo Med and Exo Terra's canned foods will cause an uproar.

 

[malduroque]

azhael
Your points for the most part are well taken. The lion, hyena comparison doesn't apply though because again, it is foolish to mix species that are going to not get along. I've never advocated that. Continuing with the African savanna theme though, you probably wouldn't have any problems keeping wildebeest and zebras together (though you'd better have a large terrarium).

As far as the selfish argument goes, one could argue that it is selfish on all of our parts to even keep these animals. Shouldn't all creatures be free? Sure we provide for them a safer environment than they would experience in the wild, we make sure that food is plentiful and we will care for them if they take ill, but we never ask if it would be preferable or beneficial for them to be truly free. Oh, and what about the ethics of human genetic engineering like morphs, artificial hyrbids and the like?

We see eye to eye here in general I think but diverge on the fine points. I still maintain that same species is a good general rule of thumb and I now concede that the inexperienced should probably stick to that, but I also know that there are combinations that do work and though it carries no intrinsic benefit to the animal, neither does it involve any detriment.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[Azhael]

I know the lions/hyenas example was off hehe...
However you are forgetting something...ALL caudates are predators. They are not wilderbeast nor zebras, they are solitary hunters, and they are very oportunistic too.
There are mixes that are obviously wrong as you yourself mention...the problem is that we cannot really know if a mix is really ok or not. We can guess...we can predict what might happen based on each animal´s biology, but there´s so much more than just compatible/uncompatible behaviours....

I don´t personally find that keeping animals in captivity is wrong. I see no reason why we wouldn´t be able to enjoy them in captivity as long as it doesn´t have an impact on the wild populations. In fact i´d say it´s rather beneficial....both for us(it´s easier to learn about this creatures if you can actually observe them properly) and for them(it ensures there´s a captive stock for the species if something went really bad). I find hybrids, morphs, and the sort to be awful...I think losing the genetic value of a species for such a selfish thing as getting weird animals(which are therefore more valuable) is ridiculous. Morphs might appear naturally, but breeding them on purpose is a terrible thing to do in my opinion.
That raises another problem with mixing...and that´s hybrids. Mixing subespecies is obviously a big risk of hybridating, and mixing certain species can also result in hybrids. This alone is enough for me not to make such mixes, and given that they are the most likely ones to actually work ok, i´d say there´s really no mix that doesn´t come with no risk at all. Taking those risks depends on each individual of course, but my personal opinion is that it´s a really bad aproach.

 

[malduroque]

Jennewt:

Earlier I said:
Oh, and Jen FWIW at least I can say that when I started with herps you were not just a fertilized egg, you were ambulatory and just entering the potty training stage.

That was a feeble attempt at humor on my part. I meant no disrespect and please accept my apology.

 

[slowfoot]

slowfoot: "You used the word 'obsessed', I didn't."
You don't really read things do you?

I read a lot, thanks for asking.

I used the word 'obsessed' with regard to the blanket non-mixers that I've encountered. I never used that word with regard to myself as you accused me of. First, you put words in my mouth, then you back pedal to hide your error. Now re-read my original post and prove me wrong. Go ahead, do it.

Prove that your newts didn't die after living together? No thanks. Also, you didn't use that word in your original post. Instead you said, "Nowhere would it indicate that I'm 'obsessed' with mixing", later in response.

Either way, you come off as extremely rude, and I don't really feel like continuing this. Enjoy your discussion.

 

[Jennewt]

slowfoot: "You used the word 'obsessed', I didn't."
You don't really read things do you? I used the word 'obsessed' with regard to the blanket non-mixers that I've encountered. I never used that word with regard to myself as you accused me of. First, you put words in my mouth, then you back pedal to hide your error. Now re-read my original post and prove me wrong. Go ahead, do it.

I will answer your more substantive question though. I've always seen terrariums as little slices of nature, a mini-world if you will. To me, it's not just an enclosure that serves the animals but an aesthetic statement unto itself. To that end, I've always, to the best of my abilities, tried to design them to reflect that, a kind of natural synergy within an artificial environment. So, in stocking the flora, I go for variety, in stocking the fauna, I try to go for variety as much as possible keeping in mind the needs of both the creatures and the plants that I would put together and yes, there are combinations that work some of which I have highlighted. The short answer: it's an aesthetic choice.

kwksand:"Malduroque, I hope you'll agree that since so few species combinations offer the slight possibility of success, it is prudent to advise novice amphibian keepers to stick with single species tanks. It simply averts one more challenge that awaits the newbies, and in the long run, increases their chances for success."
Well, I can't disagree with anything you've said and one thing you fine folks at caudates have caused me to shift my opinion a little on is encouraging newbies to mix species. I'll still fight that hard-line of 'no, no, never, never', and I'm not fond of obfuscating the truth with horror stories, but I will concede that it may be for the best. In short, I can agree with some of the sentiment I just am a bit uneasy with the methods. Tnen again, wouldn't it be fair to tell them the following combinations have worked and the degree of difficulty in making it work?? It is a tough one.

Jennewt:"Based on your other posts, I guess you'll find something to nitpick in what I've said. Something that proves that I'm just a young wippersnapper who ought to stay under a rock somewhere and keep my anecdotes and opinions to myself. Have at it!"

Why Jen, you're much too sensitive and no I don't believe that you live under a rock, in fact I'm quite sure that you're fully diurnal. My main beef is not what posters have said here, I was reacting to the monster, chiller, horror page 'Species mixing disasters' that is on this site and yes, I've run across too many 'everybody knows that you NEVER mix species" types in my cyber-travels. All I did was point out that statement is not completely true, with real world examples. I really have no problems with those who have thought this issue through and have decided to go all mono-species, it's just those 'nope, never, case closed. I've been herping 3 weeks, and someone told me on a website' types who strike me as kool aid drinkers.

It reminds me of those anti-drug campaigns I used to see in the 60's and early 70's. They had enough ammunition with the actual truth to warn about the perils of drug abuse, but no, they insisted on sensationalism, hyperbole, and half to non-truths. Scare tactics and an insult to the intelligence. (and no. I'm not equating species mixing to taking drugs. Barking Tree frogs anyone?)

Oh, and Jen FWIW at least I can say that when I started with herps you were not just a fertilized egg, you were ambulatory and just entering the potty training stage.

You didn't directly answer my question: what should this site do differently? Is it wrong to assemble anecdotes intended to instruct amphibian-keeping newbies and prevent them from repeating mistakes that many of us made in our earlier years? You complain that the article reminds you of the "sensationalism, hyperbole, and half to non-truths" of the anti-drug campaigns. Most of the text of the article is straight excerpts from forum threads, so I find it hard to see how you make this association. Your earlier complaint was most of the article is "simply the obvious". Most of the information on CC is "simply the obvious"; it's designed to meet the needs of beginning to intermediate level amphibian hobbyists.

Please submit to me a reworded/revised text (or page structure) that you believe would be more intelligent than the current article and still address the need to warn newbies about what can go wrong when species are mixed. It's easy to write sarcastically about what others have done; I'll wager it's not so easy to come up with something better.

 

[malduroque]

Jen:

Ok, so perhaps what is obvious to me may not be so obvious to a beginner, even though I swear, some of those scenarios defy common sense. I've never owned chickens or foxes, but I would know enough not to put the two together. To expand on an analogy that our beloved founder, Mr Clare, used, I've never crossed a freeway blinfolded and I've never know anyone else who has, but I know enough not to.

But there I go again being destructive rather than constructive. If the point of the page is to scare novices from ever mixing species, then based on the amount of novices that I've encountered that preach the no species mixing mantra for all manner of herps, you guys and whoever else advocates similarly have done what you set out to do. Therefore, I would have no suggestions as to how to improve upon your current campaign.

My complaint, and this was at the heart of my admittedly bombastic tirade and the reason for my anti-drug campaign citing, is that you are engaging, though well intentioned, in the somewhat dubious practice of presenting a one-sided arguement. That is why I referred to it as 'sensationalistic'. So here's my suggestion: How about both sides of the equation? Equal time if you will. Have a page of examples of successful species mixing and make it as easily accessible and subject to as much promotion, if any, as the horror story page. I think we can agree that the novice is best served with as much information as possible not just a selective sampling.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[Ed]

My complaint, and this was at the heart of my admittedly bombastic tirade and the reason for my anti-drug campaign citing, is that you are engaging, though well intentioned, in the somewhat dubious practice of presenting a one-sided arguement. That is why I referred to it as 'sensationalistic'. So here's my suggestion: How about both sides of the equation? Equal time if you will. Have a page of examples of successful species mixing and make it as easily accessible and subject to as much promotion, if any, as the horror story page. I think we can agree that the novice is best served with as much information as possible not just a selective sampling.

Lets concentrate on North American Caudates for a couple of moments here as an example.... (and to keep the responses back and forth from being unwieldy).

Many caudates are territorial often to a surprising degree.. the method by which the caudates defend thier territories is by biting the nasal area of the other salamander and this is something that has been documented in peer reviewed literature across species, genera and even families of caudates. The damage is very subtle and difficult to detect unless you know what you are looking for in the animal. The damage to the nasal area results in a less efficient feeding response (reduces competition) and within a species interferes with reproductive success. So given that a large proportion of native caudates are problematic when kept together, and the effects of the territorial aggression can be subtle in species that tend to be secretive (which means that if you are pulling them out all the time to check them for territorial issues you can cause significant stress to the animals potentially killing them) how would you recommend telling a new beginner to caudate keeping how to set up a multispecies enclosure?

This is before we get to the pheremonal communication that caudates use for communication and detection of potential predatory species. For example, Desmognathus monticola and D. quadromaculatus inhabit the same regions and often the same streams but are not found together. The reason, is that D. quadromaculatus predates on D. monticola and pushes it out of the better habitat in the stream to the margins and smaller stream sections. So while you could house D. monticola, and D. quadromaculatus together provided they were the same size, you would cause significant stress to the D. monticola as they would be trying to escape/avoid from the percieved potential predators. (for one example of this in the peer reviewed literature see http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca...=cjz&volume=76&year=1998&issue=1&msno=z97-158)

A start of some comments


Ed

 

[supercool602]

Okay, I think this is one of those topics that goes nowhere. Instead of turning this into a battle between pro-mixers and pro-separation, I'd just like to see some experiences people from this website have personally had with species mixing, like malduroque had originally done. I've just been taking care of newts for 6 months and have only studied their behavior for a year now, so I may not be the best, but I do have a (current, and hopefully longlasting) good account of mixing my two C. orientalis with 2 golden mystery snails. For the most part they simply ignore each other, though one of my newts will occasionally watch the bigger snail walk across the floor. The water quality hasn't been hindered by the introduction of the snails, and because of their relatively large size, the C. orientalis haven't ever tried to eat the snails. While I have read about the snail's operculum killing a newt before, I haven't had to fear this in my case since my snails are quite slow at closing themselves up. But, I've only had them together for a couple months now, so I'll have to wait and see.

 

[Mark]

My complaint, and this was at the heart of my admittedly bombastic tirade and the reason for my anti-drug campaign citing, is that you are engaging, though well intentioned, in the somewhat dubious practice of presenting a one-sided arguement. That is why I referred to it as 'sensationalistic'. So here's my suggestion: How about both sides of the equation? Equal time if you will. Have a page of examples of successful species mixing and make it as easily accessible and subject to as much promotion, if any, as the horror story page. I think we can agree that the novice is best served with as much information as possible not just a selective sampling.

If the consequences are on occasion negative I don't really see the point of offering a balanced view. You won't find a cigarette packet with the following warning " Smoking causes lung cancer, but there's a chance you'll live to a ripe old age with nothing more than a chesty cough."

That said, a newts average captive life span is between 10 and 20 years (maybe more). I'd be interested to hear of species mixes which have been successful for in-excess of 10 years i.e. the same animals for more than 10 years. I'd be surprised if you can find one example.

 

[malduroque]

Mark: My examples were not confined to caudates. They are more of a special case, but I would expect there are workable combinations. I gave one example, at least that worked for me. I also listed reptiles and anurans.

The cigarette analogy is not a valid one. Tobacco is one species of plant, a single variable, and the cigarettes in question here all contain tobacco. If we gave equal time we might find that A with B had bad results 10 times and good results 2 times. With that information anything above pro-simian level intelligence would quickly deduce that A with B = bad. Ok, now let's say A with C had one horror story and 12 success stories. We can then conclude that A with C is good and extrapolate further that the one failure might not have known what the heckity-heck they were doing. Why would you want to suppress that information?

If mixing of any and all combos is as overwhelmingly bad as so many of you maintain you should welcome the other side's anecdotes to the species mixing page, they would be such a tiny minority that it would serve to prove your point, right?

As for your healthy lifespan challenge, I never said nor am I maintaining that all combinations are good and that every species can find a compatible other. There are many, too many to list, combos I would never try; I'm perfectly content keeping them with their own or by themselves. I'm just saying that there are some that can work and in intentionally excluding that inforamtion we are doing a disservice to the same folks we are presumably trying to help.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[malduroque]

Ed: I'm not advocating that we create a how-to page for multi species setups. I am advocating that the Species Mixing Disaster anecdote page have a corresponding Species Mixing Success anecdote page. Then we could have on one hand:

I had species A with B. Everything was fine for 24 hours until A ate B and then A ate me.

Alongside:
I've had A with C and D for three years. Everyone's doing well and they all send their regards to caudata.org

Again, I'm including both anurans and caudates here as does the disaster page.

supercool602:
That is exactly what I am talking about. Six months may not be enough time for a definitive seal of success but it's your story and the information can be parsed and digested by the interested reader.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[Mark]

I'm just saying that there are some that can work

Let's hear about them then. If we take longevity as a basic measure of good husbandry, please give examples where species mixing over the full life time of the animals was free from complications. You can only present a balanced view if you have two sides. I welcome you, or anyone else to add your experiences of long term species mixing. If there's enough anecdotal evidence perhaps it could even justify a "mixing success" article...

 

[malduroque]

"I welcome you, or anyone else to add your experiences of long term species mixing"

For my contribution, read the first post in this thread.

'If there's enough anecdotal evidence perhaps it could even justify a "mixing success" article...'

If you'll notice, the Disaster page has anecdotes culled from all over the internet over a period of time, it wasn't created overnight by an impromptu call for posts.

Realistically, judging by the tenor of the group here, especially the authority figures, I don't expect such a page to ever materialize. All I'm doing here is offering a suggestion in response to a request from Jennewt of me and following up with why I think it would've be a good idea.

Resignedly,
Mal

 

[Ed]

For my contribution, read the first post in this thread.

Hi Mal,

Kept C. Orientalis with Eastern Newts. For the time the Orientalis were similar size as the Eastern newts, everything went swimmingly. Though I had no evidence of any problems, once Orientalis got noticeably bigger I separated them as a precaution.

On these topics I started specifically with caudates only so we can parse it down without it getting lost in the shuffle...
Going back to you first post..I cut and pasted it above..

While this appears to have worked on the surface, there is a real risk of novel disease issues when mixing from disparate geographic regions that have caused problems in various areas of the country. See my original post on this problem. I noted that post got totally skipped over in for a comment or response. (for one peer reviewed reference on the introduction and spread see
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/46/d046p159.pdf) (And note when we get to anurans this and other references wil probably surface once again).

Once we work through these issues with caudates then we can open up the discussion to other taxa.

Ed

 

[Mark]

Forgive me but your contribution doesn’t present a particularly persuasive argument. You had two species of newt which you separated as a precaution. You separated them before they were fully grown suggesting this was not a long term arrangement. Hardly a case for championing species mixing.

You’re right, the article was probably compiled over lengthy period and therefore we can’t expect an overnight response. The issue of mixing is however raised on an almost weekly basis and in the 5 years I’m been a member I don’t believe I’ve seen an example of long term success (although there are plenty who pop in to claim their community tank is a beacon to the hobby – they never seem to be around to update us as the years go by). I truly would love them to come back and prove us doubters wrong.

 

[freves]

As tired as I am of this thread, and this is only because this topic shows up so frequently, it is nice to see Ed back.
Chip

 

[Ed]

So there has been a slight review of multispecies caudate only enclosures which to a large extent indicates that successful enclosures for at least the majority of these species is going to be difficult at best to maintain in an manner that is optimal for the animals involved.

So lets expand this out a little... is it possible to maintain multispecies enclosures involving caudates and other amphibians.. the answer is yes but there are some items that should be reviewed first.

Lets start out with space.. ideally more space allows for greater variation in the enclosure which can go a long way to ensure more natural behaviors in the animals involved however most people are used to keeping the animals in standard available aquaria. This is problematic as many people miss the idea that a larger aquarium does not automatically mean that you can keep more animals in the tank. The reason for this is that the surface area available in the aquarium does not increase at the same rate as the volume. (I'm not going to retype all of the calculations I did on a different site..) and some standard larger aquariums may provide comparatively less space than a smaller enclosure due to thier shape. This means that anyone attempting to set up an enclosure should actually measure the available floor space and decide if that enclosure provides sufficient space to accomedate the appropriate niches for those species.

Some more comments.. more to add as I get time.

Ed

 

[xenopus]

malduroque the way you write reminds me of anthony bourdaign (have no idea how to spell that right) i can so hear him talking while reading your stuff :happy: while i didnt read everything on this thread you seem to be taken as rude and i think i read even nitpicky but i get where your comming from. sometimes people see me like that too but im just trying to answer each and everyone and each and everything and get all my ducks in a row and get down to the exact thing that im talking about i guess that comes across wrong sometimes my opinion is rather than rude and nitpicky edgy and exact would be a better assesment

 

[fishkeeper]

Hello Ed, and all.

Let me pose a mix I've considered and thought out.

46 gallon bowfront paludarium with 5 C. e. popei. The water level is maybe 5 inches. Their is a lot of unused space in the form of the airspace above the water, which only has a few branches that the newts do not use.

Would a species of treefrog be compatible if more branches and foliage were added? The only species easily acquired, that lives on the Ryukyu islands(introduced, however), is the golden treefrog Polypedates leucomystax.

Suppose I added a pair of these? They would likely ignore the newts, would not encroach on the newts territory, stay relatively small(approx 3 inches) and might even provide food raining in from the sky in the form of tadpoles(of which C. e. popei predates on in the wild).

I think the same could be done with, say, Notopthalmus viridescens, and, say, chorus frogs. Perhaps even some small killifish. They all occur together in the wild and I think a 50 gallon tank could accomodate the needs of small groups of both.

I agree that novices should not be encouraged to mix. And I'd be happy to have this one shot down though a few others have said it would likely work ok.