Species mixing

I've been reading this thread since it was started...and I've been afraid to post on it until now...but I guess I'll give it a try.

I've had a mixed species tank (and ONLY one, I might add...all my other caudates are kept in single species enclosures) that has been working well for almost two years. It's a 45 gallon tank that's half land, half water, with a gradual slope in between. In the aquatic end I have a pair of N. viridescens and on the terrestrial end, two A. opacum. I collected all four of these animals at the same time and in the same location, so if any of them have diseases, they were probably shared in the wild. Also, the university lab I work in as an undergraduate researcher does periodic testing of the amphibians at the site because we collect our anuran research specimens from there, and there has yet to be an incidence of major disease such as the dreaded chytrid. I know someone will probably mention the fact that my salamanders could drown, but I've taken as many precautions as possible by making a very gradual slope and also adding lots of aquatic vegetation as a sort of "life raft". I have never seen the sals in or around the water since they morphed. The main reasons I felt I could make this particular tank were because there would be little to no contact (and cause for aggression) between the two species, and I thought a 45 gallon was more than sufficient for two notos and thought I could be a little creative.

I'm not in any way saying that mixed species tanks are a good idea, especially for newbies. I just wanted to see what everyone's thoughts were. Also, just because someone is a junior member or holds an opinion that some might disagree with doesn't mean they're not knowledgeable about caudates or at least more than willing to absorb all they can about this wonderful hobby.
 
xenopus:
Thank you. As you know anything with an edge sometimes rubs the wrong way. Also every blog/web board/group has it's own heirarchy, preferred style and decorum and it usually takes one a few posts to find a comfortable niche and/or decide whether it's a good fit personally.

Ed:
I wasn't ignoring you, there just wasn't anything in particular that I would dispute in your post. My experience is much more vast with turtles and anurans than caudates. As I mentioned in my intro to the group, I've owned about a half dozen caudate species over the years and probably 25 or more anuran species. As for the c.orientalis and noto mix, I've gone on record in this thread in one of my many responses saying that I wouldn't try that again.

So perhaps caudates are a more sensitive lot in the herp world with regards to species mixing. I would like to see others come forward with their examples of caudate mixing that were successful. Hopefully they would not fear any backlash or loss of esteem from the power brokers of the group, from my experience other than a couple of exceptions, everyone here seems very reasonable.

Mainly, as I have stated my complaint regards the fervent unconditional no mixing cult in the herp world in gerneral that seems to have sprung up since the internet age. I still maintain, based on my experience and others I've known over the years that there are some that work, but I'm open to the possibility that in the caudate world there are no good ones. When I get a chance, I'm going to check with a professional herpetologist acquaintance of mine to see if he's had any caudate mixing experiences.

katebutton:
Thanks for sharing your experience, I know there are others out there.


Respectfully,
Mal
 
Okay,
I lookt over these posts and see a lot off irritation.
The hole thing is verry easy,its not a good idea to putdifferent newts together(several reasons).
And its also going good once and a while.(maybe more)
So its not good and sometimes it's going good.
Be AWARE that sometimes is not meaning its good for them.
But i think that's everybodie's owne choise.
Talk,write and make foto's to tell wat happens and learn from it!
Petro
 
This topic cannot be resolved. It is virtually impossible for this website to generally address the topic of species mixing. There is an infinite array of combinations of how you could devise habitats to keep various species with caudates together. If you have enough space and money you could probably mix rhinos and newts.

Furthermore, you have the consider what each individual considers "acceptable loss" For instance, I have little ramshorn snails with my mudpuppy. Technically, this could be considered a mixed tank. (At least some consider apple snails and axolotls a mixing disaster.) I do very much enjoy the ramshorn snail population, but there is a considerable amount of devouring that occurs. If I was a snail enthusiast, then my tank would be a mixing disaster, but from a caudate view, I consider it acceptable.

For the most part, beginners who arrive at this site energized with their new caudates are better off not mixing. They have a strong tendency to try to over do it with mixing. If not then you end up with an angry beginner that says, "I put my axie with fish and now it's dead, but your website said I could try it...". The safe bet is don't mix, unless you're okay with potentially harming your pet.

Experts that want to mix should be discussed on a case-by-case scenario, which is one of the purposes of a forum.

It sounds that most of the problems concern the evangelized "no-mixing" people. I concur that they can be annoying. However, I don't think extremist and over-zealous, opinionated remarks are unique to the species-mixing debate or that this phenomenon new or caused by pet care websites. The Internet simply gives voice to these views. Posting on public forums opens your views to all sorts of criticism and we simply have very little choice but to deal with the criticisms when faced with them.
 
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pete said:
This topic cannot be resolved. It is virtually impossible for this website to generally address the topic of species mixing. There is an infinite combinations of how you could devise habitats to keep various species with caudates together. If you have enough space and money you could probably mix rhinos and newts.
Click to expand...
I´m totally agree with this.
 
Pete,
Thanks for the claer writing,my english is simply not good enough.
I totally agree with the things you wrote.
Petro
 
I have had great success keeping white rhino with red spotted newts in a 55 gallon aquarium. In the years that I kept them together, none ever died or had any problems.
 
Hi Mal,

I took your question seriously and this is often an issue on many forums however few people are willing to break down the potential issues to give a clearer picture of why it can be problematic in specific instances.

malduroque said:
So perhaps caudates are a more sensitive lot in the herp world with regards to species mixing. I would like to see others come forward with their examples of caudate mixing that were successful.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should start with what is considered successful... earlier in this thread, I posted a list of what is often the progression of what is considered success with captive animals at different stages. Ideally one should be aiming for the highest goal with the amphibian (maximal longevity, reproduction at a level that equals or ideally exceeds loss in captivity, and maximized normal or naturalistic behaviors).
Do you have anything you would like to offer as a counter definition? I'm sorry if you are percieving my approach as being aggressive but I tend to be blunt and if the thread ends up being productive then it can be referenced in the future....



malduroque said:
Mainly, as I have stated my complaint regards the fervent unconditional no mixing cult in the herp world in gerneral that seems to have sprung up since the internet age. I still maintain, based on my experience and others I've known over the years that there are some that work, but I'm open to the possibility that in the caudate world there are no good ones. When I get a chance, I'm going to check with a professional herpetologist acquaintance of mine to see if he's had any caudate mixing experiences.
Click to expand...

There are some potential combinations of caudates that does work but I don't think we have worked out the basic discussion enough to discuss specifics as of yet...

If you note in the thread above, I gave concrete reasons as to why multispecies (mixing should not be used as a description as it implies a homogenous result and this is not what happens in multispecies enclosures) at least with respect to caudates may be problematic.. this is often not the cause when discussing multispecies enclosures as many people have missed the concrete reasons for the generalities and set up the policy as dogma. The dogma is where I interpret you having issues with the anecdotal no mixing article.
This is why I am parsing down the discussion on a logical basis with references where needed....

So lets define successful and then get back to the discussion......

Ed
 
John said:
I have had great success keeping white rhino with red spotted newts in a 55 gallon aquarium. In the years that I kept them together, none ever died or had any problems.
Click to expand...

So I guess this means my post was a joke then? The inner circle here makes me feel disheartened sometimes.
 
katebutton said:
So I guess this means my post was a joke then? The inner circle here makes me feel disheartened sometimes.
Click to expand...

I believe this was directed at my comment.

pete said:
If you have enough space and money you could probably mix rhinos and newts.
Click to expand...

Nonetheless, I and many others surely appreciate your input to the thread.
 
katebutton said:
So I guess this means my post was a joke then? The inner circle here makes me feel disheartened sometimes.
Click to expand...
Actually no, I took Pete's point and used it for comparison with what Mal originally said. You should not be so insecure.

And as to "inner circle", that's news to me. What is this inner circle business. Please PM me about that because it's news to me.
 
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"And as to "inner circle", that's news to me. What is this inner circle business. Please PM me about that because it's news to me."

Don't play coy good sir. Every forum after a time develops its own social order and part of that takes the form of an inner circle. They are distinguished by either by sheer volume of posts, bellicosity of posts, length of tenure, friendliness with the admin or general familiarity with each other with any combination of the preceding. They often communicate outside the forum, in chat rooms, private email or even in-person encounters.

They can be and often are insular and how much newer members are willing to contribute, especially something that may go against their collective grain, depends on what degree that insularity is practiced.

From what I've seen, as I've mentioned before, this group, with the exception of a couple loads I've encountered, seem to be very reasonable and interested in both the pursuit and dissemination of knowledge and level-headed discourse. This my impression up to this point anyway.

Mal
 
Ed:
I re-read your first post and you only asked one question:"how would you recommend telling a new beginner to caudate keeping how to set up a multispecies enclosure"

I repsonded with: "I'm not advocating that we create a how-to page for multi species setups. I am advocating that the Species Mixing Disaster anecdote page have a corresponding Species Mixing Success anecdote page."

Subsequently, you have asked how we determine success. Well, there's the fundamental dilemma. It's easy to quantify 'disaster', A eats B, C is now missing a leg, or all of D suddenly died after I introduced E. For success, I agree we need to establish workable criteria.

At its most basic, I would say longevity to begin with. Mark's proposal of a full or near full life span yardstick has merit but falls short in that this would limit it to only keepers who get full life spans on a regular basis out of their single species setups. So we would need to come up with a milestone mark in years as an initial criterion. In addition, there's quality of life. Do they appear healthy, do they appear unstressed, are they feeding with normal vigor and volume? Finally, do they behave in a manor commensurate with expectations for that species allowing of course for normal individual variation? Admittedly, some of this will be subjective.

As to your territorial snout biting mention: Would that not also occur in same species setups?

Respectfully,
Mal
 
Would breeding be a sign of success? The notos I mentioned in my earlier post bred in late March and produced fertile eggs...I can post video of the tail fanning, spermatophore deposition, etc. if there's a way to post videos here that aren't on YouTube. (I don't have a YouTube account and don't really want to make one.) Then again, the notos probably go about life not even thinking about the marbled sals they share the tank with.
 
Breeding is a good sign that everything is fine. However it´s not a definitive sign, specially when we are talking about WC animals. WC are commonly collected during breeding season, so they are already conditioned, and they will breed in captivity despite bad husbandry. This is common with C.orientalis....which might appear to start breeding right away after being purchased. The truth is that they were already breeding when they were collected and their imperative is to keep breeding no matter what.

So, breeding is a very good sign of success as far as we are talking about true captive breeding(conditioned in captivity).
 
Breeding is a very basic instinct among many animals in the world. So is to eat. Some animals will breed under horrible conditions. So even if breeding CAN be a sign that you are doing everything right its far from the only thing to look for.

Just because an animal eats and randomly breeds dosent mean its OK. I know two people that have non knowledge of Ambystoma mavortium at all but both managed to produce eggs and larvae. None survived though (there were only lucky to get the larve but didnt have the knowledge to raise them).

There is a lot more to pay attention to than breeding, eating and producing waste, if you want to make chure you have healthy animals.

Best regards

Fredrik
 
I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to get feedback on my example in particular. So many times in this thread people have asked for examples of successful mixed species tanks, and I think I'm giving one. My newts are WC- I collected them myself about 3 years ago as efts. So no, they weren't already breeding in the wild. My husbandry practices were more than adequate for them to complete the fully terrestrial to fully aquatic switch, and they've never shown signs of being ill or sluggish. I believe that because I've taken good care of them by meeting all the requirements of the spp, and also because I've planted their tank with all the native aquatic vegetation they would find in their pools in the wild, my newts are healthy and comfortable enough to decide to breed. I would also say that my chubby marbled sals are also healthy and comfortable.
All of my family, including my parents, work in the field of biology or botany, and I've been keeping amphibians since childhood. I know what a healthy animal looks like, and I would be more than willing to change my practices if I thought they were stressed in any way.
I joined caudata.org to learn more about some of the non-native species I have no experience with- I assure you I know my notos and ambystomatids well, and by no means am I new to keeping them.
 
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