My cunning Plan

A litttle comment about the food. Tadpoles, while nutritious, are a risky choice for food. They can pass on patogens and parasites, and depending on the species they may also be toxic. I would avoid them entirely.
Beef heart is not a suitable choice either. Axolotls can´t digest mammal meat properly, it´s too caloric and not nutritionally complete.

The best food choice are, without a doubt, earthworms.

Also, i´d advice you to avoid any direct sunlight ever touching the tank, not a good idea at all.
 
Well I am not unfortunately an expert on the local frogs, but observing them they seem to be non-toxic. In fact the frogs in my garden seem to be the a rather major lower rung in the food chain. Including for other frogs. And rather remarkably for Australia and our diverse selection of deadly wild life I've not actual heard that we have any notable poisonous frogs, certainly not in our region. Except for the introduced cane toads, and they aren't this far South. I'm going to run with the assumption the tadpoles are non-toxic.

As for disease and parasites. That's a risk the axolotls are stuck with. When I set this project up I had a choice. I could provide these axolotls with a very diverse and large supply of fresh healthy live food from my many outdoor ponds. And risk the disease and parasites but have them benefit from a genuinely great diet. Or they could eat unpleasant purchased food.

I went with the awesome but risky diet option. I'm sure it's what the axolotls would have chosen. In the mean time they get a natural style tank and start the diet plan from a young age in the hope that it will help harden their immune systems and bolster their general vitality and disease resistance.

Oh and the pond caught food in the garden while certainly outdoors isn't precisely wild caught either. It might be better to think of these tadpoles, mosquitoes and other things as free range farm produce. These are healthy, well fed, heavily predated, large populations of food animals.
 
Some quick research of local poisonous frogs got me this useful list. Clinical Toxinology Resources Website

The only really bad ones on the list aren't local.

We are in the correct region for about two of those toadlets, and I know red crowned toadlets have been sighted no more than half an hours drive from here. I had thought we might have brown toadlets in the garden (very rarely) but the particulars of the profile description don't match up with my sightings.

The possible toadlet is the least common frog in the garden. And the small tadpoles are probably the massively more common eastern dwarf tree frog, and I am pretty sure I recognise them as such. If not it doesn't matter anyway because they've already been eaten with no immediate effect.
 
Just another quick note on diet as well.., DON'T FEED THEM FISH FLAKES!!! It's another no-go for their digestive tract and another worry for their nutritional intakes (not fun dealing with a sick axie :( ). I'd say with your awesome foods, try and quarantine at least three weeks, or set up an alternate, safe supply just to be on the safe side- us aussies have lost some good axies the past week (And spread out right across the country!), so there's a chance there's something nasty out there, and frogs/taddies could very well be the carrier/victims...
Another thing to perhaps consider (After quarantining them) are red cherry shrimp (Neocaridina Heteropoda- Available through pet shops etc if you don't already have a good stock around- and they breed like CRAZY!), or the prolific and local Glass Shrimp (Paratya australiensis), which is found in many freshwater water sources throughout the eastern seaboard. There are some excellent articles on here about RCS (Not to sure about glassies, but they're a major part of what my first bunch of axies were raised on from what their original breeder was saying (That and tadpoles spawned in the same dam as them :D ). Personally, I've experienced axies with the RCS, and they've survived down to 9-8c, and up to 23c, so they sit quite comfortably in the axie's temp range. As to glass shrimp, similar temp range according to the stream watch site (Was looking it over a few months back- I'm kicking myself 'cause I can't remember the correct name...), and even down to just above zero- found near Cooma if I remember. I'll know for certain when I get mine in a few weeks/months *boogies*!
Good luck!
 
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Sadly a three week quarantine is ludicrously impractical for very marginal benefits.

The primary food they are getting at the moment is Mosquito Larvae. In three weeks those guys have finished being larvae and are halfway through their entire adult life spans.
 
Actually the feeding plan has pretty much been decided in advance based on what is readily available in the water gardens.

So the plan is...
While they are small -
Mosquitos (if the local mosquitoes can even keep up, they are getting eaten very fast already)
Small Tadpoles (probably Eastern Dwarf Tree Frog, or very similar species)
Black Worms (I still dislike these because I suspect too many escape in the large cluttered tank)
Brine Shrimp (If I need to purchase more live food to supplement the catch it will probably be these in preference to the worms)
Whatever other small invertibrates I encounter (either gardening or fishing, so smaller wild water beetles and worms, maybe the occasional small cricket or grub)

When they get bigger -
Australian Rainbow Fish, probably Melanotaenia duboulayi but I'm not actually sure, definitley Melanotaenia something though (I have especially large numbers of these, thousands in fact)
Baby gold fish (only minor occasional dish since they are very rarely and unreliably available in an appropriate size)
Larger Tadpoles (almost certainly Spotted Marsh Frogs)
Larger aquatic invertebrates (I have plenty of larger water beetles about the right size for large axolotl to eat. The question is whether any of them are bitter, toxic, or especially vicious. I have my suspicions about some varieties but there are a bunch to choose from)
Larger terrestrial invertebrates (we have really excessively large earth worms, subterranean beetle larvae grubs, plenty of large crickets, even more grubs and other critters found in around gardens and while moving large amounts of soil into and out of vast numbers of potted plants)
Possibly some water snails (Actually I'd rather they were left alone to clean up waste in the tank. But since there is a swallowing hazard with them it's fortunate that I happen to have a fairly appropriately sized and rather soft shelled native water snail. I'm a little concerned but these guys are about the same size and hardness as many large water beetles)

Once they are large enough to go onto the larger food list I shouldn't need to buy any supplemental foods.

And if they get really really really big I may make inquiries about whether I can feed them very small yabbies. Mostly just because I really hate yabbies.

Admittedly that list largely consists of "things that fit inside an axolotls mouth that I happen to have lying around in large numbers" rather than being a carefully engineered diet plan. But it should provide a pretty varied and nutritious diet that basically is "stuff that lives in or falls into fresh water", which I assume is what they would eat in the wild.
 
That one, I can answer: NO NO NO NO NO NONONONONONOOOOOO!!!!
Two of my axies were invaded in their breeding pond by yabbies, and they STILL have the damage along the caudal fin. There were casualities in their cousins/brothers/sisters/best mate down the other end. Their shell is unsuitable, their potential for internal damage unimaginable.
 
axolotls are not the best predators. not only are goldfish not nutritious, they may actually nip their gills. The same goes for rainbow fish, but I have no idea about their nutritious value. You really can't get a better diet than earthworms. You could probably start feeding your axolotls worms now and not run the risk of introducing them to parasites and disease. There is a reason people quarantine live food, so I don't think it's a ludicrous idea.
 
carsona246 said:
not only are goldfish not nutritious, they may actually nip their gills.
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I am a little concerned over the nutrition value. I'm aware they aren't great but would like to know whether a small amount would "contribute to a balanced and nutritious diet". Basically as long as they aren't an outright negative addition to the diet I intend to give them some.

As to gill nipping I am not worried. These aren't intended as long term tank mates. Only fish in appropriately small numbers and sizes to be rapidly eaten will be added, and any sign of a fish with an extended life span in a tank will see it fished out and returned to the ponds to prevent exactly that problem.

The same goes for rainbow fish, but I have no idea about their nutritious value.
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Neither do I. Except the nutrition guide here calls "feeder fish" (not including rainbows) bad for nutrition. But calls "raw fish" good (presumably including, and with the salt comment, preferring fresh water species). So SOME sort of fresh water fish must be good. And rainbow fish certainly have a much different less oily, less scaly more "fishy" consistency to them compared to gold fish.

Meanwhile observation of predators in the garden suggests that Rainbow fish are pretty popular. Certain smaller predatory birds (small blue king fishers) that avoided our garden when we only had goldfish now breed on site each year and feed primarily on a diet consisting of rainbows.

The only fish more popular and possible suitable would be the favorite of the local snake necked tortoise, the Pacific Blue eye, but I just don't have enough of them to catch reliably.

Oh and rainbows are supposed to be disinclined to nip at other "fish" or even amphibians. But I'm you know how that kind of advice often turns out. So they get the same "just enough to eat rapidly" treatment as the gold fish.

You really can't get a better diet than earthworms. You could probably start feeding your axolotls worms now
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Unfortunately probably not. While it is moderately easy to find really really large or even some medium sized earth worms here for some reason it is actually really really hard to find little ones. It may be due to the local dominant species being, well, pretty damn big.

For now even the garden's medium sized earth worms will have a body mass larger than the baby axolotls.

There is a reason people quarantine live food, so I don't think it's a ludicrous idea.
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I cannot keep live food with a rapid life cycle in a three week quarantine.

I cannot keep live food with complex dietary requirements in a three week quarantine while feeding them only on more live food also subject to a three week quarantine.

I cannot keep large amounts of live food with high or rather specific water quality requirements in a three week quarantine and actually expect to produce a quarantine tank (or rather tanks) with general quality of water and over all health better than the out door artificial ponds they are caught in. Not without going to a much greater effort to establish those tanks than it has taken to establish the axolotl tank on it's own.

And even without all of that a three week quarantine has marginal benefits since
A) The food may not have been carrying pathogens at all making it a colossal waste of time.
B) The only way to harden an animal's immune system against pathogens which have a knack of eventually finding their way in anyway is to be exposed to them in a smaller more natural manner from an early age.
C) The "quarantine" could actually worsen the health of feeder animals, and spread pathogens to a large batch, even make healthy feeders into sick ones, and it's not like I could recognize the pathogens at the end of quarantine anyway with the large variety of feeder animals.

The cost and benefits of a three week quarantine are not acceptable. In comparison the risk (and I do recognize there ARE risks) and benefits of live food straight from a healthy artificial outdoor pond environment are acceptable.

From the beginning the goal with this tank is to set it up to be as much like an outdoor pond as possible in every way. And that includes the food supply.
 
I disagree completely, but you're going to do whatever you feel is right. However feeding earthworms will not require any quarantine, and be sufficient for their diet. You can always cut up earthworms, or if they are still too large for your young axolotls, feeding frozen bloodworms will work until they are large enough to be fed earthworms. I actually think your dietary plan is less effective then feeding them only earthworms, because it has the potential of introducing sickness into your tank.
The marginal benefits of your dietary plan will be almost useless when your axolotls are actually big enough to eat whole earthworms. Mosquito larvae and blackworms are great for young axolotls, but once they get large enough to eat earthworms, there's really no reason to have them in the tank. Also, your axolotls may not even be able to catch rainbow fish. Mine can't even seem to catch the cherry shrimp I put in my fish tank.
I don't think the idea of introducing your axolotls to pathogens and illness at an early age is a good idea, or a method of effectively increasing their immune system, for instance worms aren't something axolotls can become immune to. There is no reason for dumping all these animals in your fish tank, and I would say it's counterproductive to your axolotls health, as they will most likely be suffering from something once you do. Therefore i still say that quarantine is not a ludicrous idea, just an inconvenient one.
 
Scientific studies have shown that in general animals raised in sterile environments have weaker immune systems compared to animals raised with a more naturalistic exposure to minor environmental and dietary pathogens.

I know of no such information specific to axolotls but I see absolutely no reason why they should be considered an exception to the general rule.

And while I could readily keep rainbow fish at least in relatively good water quality and captivity for three weeks feeding them moderately sterile foods it is simply not doable with many of the other live food options which require additional smaller live food or algae. And even with the rainbow fish the three week period in captivity is only going to place them under stress and damage their health, making them only more likely to catch some nasty microbe.

Also as to why on earth you think terrestrial worms couldn't possibly carry pathogens or parasites is somewhat beyond me. The environments they live in are a very long shot from sterile and you most certainly aren't cleaning them and purging them of their contents sufficiently to have any pretense of quarantine if you are harvesting worms from a garden or worm farm.
 
I've never heard of an axolotl catching anything from an earthworm, however I've read many cases where failure to quarantine has caused issues.
 
The line between wet mulchy organic soil that earth worms love, bogs, swamps, and aquatic sediment is a pretty fuzzy one. Especially for things like fungus, algae, bacteria, nematodes, and other microscopic organisms. Earth worms roll around in (and basically eat) mud that teems with microscopic wild life just as much as your average tadpole. OK so maybe you have built up a tradition of anecdotal fairy tales that pretends earth worms are clean without the need for sterile quarantine. But I cannot see any logical basis for that belief. Dropping an earth worm into a fish tank is from a sterility stand point basically identical to dropping a small measure of rotting organic matter and mud into the tank.

Almost the only edge case situation where zero quarantine is better with earth worms is potentially tadpoles and amphibian specific pathogens. And that doesn't hold for fishes or insects. Considering the separation biologically and continentally between axolotls and local Australian frogs it probably doesn't even hold especially true for the tadpoles.
 
And another two words: HENDRA VIRUS. SWINE FLU. SPANISH FLU. BIRD FLU. FHIV, GASTRO. E COLI. And the one which you ARE playing with, Salmonella. All real world situations, so we're not saying just to be mean and horrible. Btw, we DO wash worms before using them.
 
I fully understand the potential benefits of quarantine. I just don't see the costs as viable and am pointing out that it seems the apparently recently popular earth worm methodology around here is not observing quarantine.

Minniechild said:
Btw, we DO wash worms before using them.
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So you also wash out their partially digested contents and quarantine them for three weeks in a sterile environment with sterile worm foods?

Or are you suggesting that a light rinsing in clean water is the equivalent of three weeks sterile quarantine as long as it's an earth worm?
 
Wouldn't most aquatic parasites/illnesses that would affect an axolotl need water to survive? I've never heard of an axolotl getting sick from eating an earthworm, so I happen to find it hard to believe that an earthworm, which doesn't live in water, would be a carrier for some form of aquatic parasite or illness. I have on the other hand heard tons of stories from people who introduced feeder fish into their axolotl/fish tanks, which then introduced illness. Parasites/illnesses need carriers to survive, and seeing as worms are not aquatic animals i don't think anything they have would affect an axolotl. I haven't done any research on this at all, so this is all speculation. I just don't share your confidence that your axolotls will not catch something from eating pond critters.
 
carsona246 said:
I happen to find it hard to believe that an earthworm, which doesn't live in water, would be a carrier for some form of aquatic parasite or illness.
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But earth worms DO live "in the water". Or close enough to it.

At a microscopic level, and for the purposes of microscopic life wet organic mud is pretty interchangeable with the mud in a swamp or bog, or a pond.

But even regardless of that earthworms actually really like we, even inundated or submerged soil. I find live healthy earth worms (and not aquatic worms, actual earth worms) in the submerged portions of bogs, swamps and potted plants all the time. If you are gathering earth worms from anywhere remotely near a swamp, pond, or water way, or even just a "damp" corner of the garden they may well be spending a large portion of their time in genuinely inundated soils.

And if that isn't enough for you I regular find worms living in the same (wet) environments as actual amphibians, and they are eaten by amphibians and if I were a virus or a parasite with a complex life cycle worms would I suspect be a perfectly acceptable carrier due to their shared environment, proximity, mobility and role as a potential meal.

Parasites/illnesses need carriers to survive
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Pathogens is a term that covers far more than just animal specific parasites and viruses. As a horticulturalist for instance I am well aware that things like Fungi, which I gather can be bad for axolotls fall in the category. The tiny measure of muddy loamy mulch introduced with (or within) any earth worm will carry fungal spores, nematodes, organic toxins, algaes, bacterias and a host of other potential pathogens. Not a one of which absolutely NEEDS to be axolotl or even aquatic specific to be detrimental to an axolotl (or the aquarium environment itself).

And with the nature of a worms environment and habits along with the ability of many aquatic micro-organisms to survive in dormant states there is indeed absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that worms are even proof against carrying actual aquatic specific pathogens.

I haven't done any research on this at all, so this is all speculation. I just don't share your confidence that your axolotls will not catch something from eating pond critters.
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I don't have any research either. But if you have a significant and broad concern about pathogens the science of it is pretty basic. There ARE many and diverse pathogens in the stuff worms eat and live in. Some of them may be dangerous to aquariums and axolotls. Some of them may even be specifically tailored to aquatic environments, or even the amphibians that live up close and personal with worms on a constant basis.

I am in fact NOT confident that my axolotls will avoid catching something from eating pond critters. Indeed I am fairly confident they WILL be exposed to pathogens, though hopefully mostly very mild and ultimately harmless ones, and in a manner widely accepted to improve resistance to much worse pathogens.

I practically guarantee that over a sufficient amount of time and with a sufficient sample size there will in fact be some measurable amount of detrimental or potentially fatal pathogens. And the life times of four axolotls may well be a large enough sample to sustain actual casualties.

But the fact is that what we don't share is the rather odd confidence that worms dragged directly from their diet of rotting organic matter and animal waste in wet environments surrounded by fungi, nematodes, bacteria and actual amphibians are a food that can just be rinsed off and won't potentially carry almost the exact the same, or at the very least very very similar risks as "pond critters".

I mean as far as my observations as a professional who spends a lot of time around "pond critters" earth worms ARE a "pond critter".
 
Hi there Mathew,

The only way to be sure of not infecting your axies, if you are heart set on not quarantining, is to set up your own personal worm farm, which many of us (myself included) have done.

Buy a pack of 500 or 1000 composting worms from Bunnings, feed them on your compost leftovers and you are right to go. Don't use them for a few weeks so they can build up in numbers and so if any illness breakouts are going to occur, they already would have.

Now of course this is only a solution for when your babies are off daphnia and BBS but as long as you are hatching these baby live foods yourself, they should not be a problem.

Of course if you are planning on feeding fish as a treat when the axies are older, you really MUST quarantine!

I was EXTREMELY lucky last week that I did not buy fish for my axies when my housemate got his, as in the last week 1/2 of his fish have died from being covered in fungus! Water parameters were perfect! I have not quarantined in the past but after this incident I DEFINITELY will! I can't imagine how bad I would feel if one of my axies died from me simply being lazy...

Good luck and I hope this helps. :)
 
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