Poll: species mixing

[Azhael]

As with everything else in this world there exceptions to the rule....
The are caudate species like Ommatotriton ophryticus that live in conditions that can only be discribed as "reptile-like". And there are also some reptiles that live a life that would be associated to amphibians.

Obviously that does not mean mixing them is a good idea....but i just wanted to say that your statement has it´s excepcions....

 

[Nathan]

I admit it, I'm a mixer. But I don't mix haphazardly. Some successful combinations I have had:

Ambystoma talpoideum + A. texanum + A. maculatum + A. opacum. These guys are similar enough in size and temperament that mixing them is a cinch.

Ambystoma species above + Hyla avivoca + H. chrysoscelis + H. cinerea. Workable, but the treefrogs will need to be removed for feeding or the sallies will not get enough to eat.

A. tigrinum + Lithobates (=Rana) palustris. Perhaps a less usual arrangement, but it's working out fine for me.

Siren intermedia + Lucania goodei + Elassoma zonatum + Etheostoma fusiforme + E. proeliare + Fundulus notatus. This mix will depend on your siren's temperament. My guys make no attempt to pursue fish, though they happily gobble live crustaceans and worms.

Some mixes that did not work well:

S. intermedia + Fundulus seminolis. The killifish attacked the sirens' gills, perhaps because they looked like bloodworms to him. Needless to say he was transferred to a different tank.

Neotenic Ambystoma talpoideum + Carinotetraodon sp. I found my salamander, who had been kept alone, dead with distended throat one morning. I placed the corpse in formalin, at which point the anterior portion began jerking violently. Soon a very distressed dwarf pufferfish swam out of the salamander's mouth and began swimming frantically in circles. I took it out of the formalin and transferred it to water, but it soon died. A little questioning revealed that a coworker had bought the fish and placed it in the tank the day before.

 

[arumanii]

And I need another category! I mix normal fish eg. danio, plec types, axies, newts of differing species, a few frogs, etc and all live in harmony & are doing really well...

...but it's a nuisance to keep everything at just the right ranges to keep everything well kept (the fish prob just have to hack it & keep out of the others way) & I have so many small areas or hiding caves that I rarely see some of the plecs!

I'd prob only ever advise new ppl to go for one sort n keep small fish with them tho.

Sometimes I wish I'd just stuck to axies...simple and by far the cutest things in there!

 

[Mark]

And I need another category! I mix normal fish eg. danio, plec types, axies, newts of differing species, a few frogs, etc and all live in harmony & are doing really well...

hmmm... what should we call that category I wonder? Perhaps you should start running now and get a head start .

 

[Azhael]

I can´t believe people ignore completely the added risks of mixing species....
Why do people only care about agression/predation???

Bacteria, fungae, parasites, toxins, stress...different needs...do those things mean nothing?

 

[Nathan]

Of course they mean something, and I think most of us who do mix take those things into account. I only mix herps taken from the same site, and only in a tank which can accomodate all of them. I would not throw in a fire salamander with a tiger, or any other such foolish combination. Properly done, mixing species is no more dangerous than keeping multiple conspecifics together. Of course, keeping animals each in individual tanks and sterilizing (not just washing) one's hands and all equipment before moving from cage to cage is safest of all, but who does that outside of a laboratory environment?

 

[Azhael]

How exactly does mixing species from the same localities prevent patogen/parasite exchange, stress and toxin related issues???
It´s very common between mixers to think that since the animals come from the same place, everything´s fine. However, a terrarium cannot be compared to nature, and forcing different species to coexist in a limited space is most definitely not the same as the kind of relation that naturally exists between them.

Caudates are highly sensitive to smells and chemicals and they can definitely sense other creatures. That can lead to stress.
You are right in saying there are risks even with animals of the same species, that´s why quarantine is an absolute must. However, a lot of us deal with CB animals which are healthy, and do not carry the numerous problems that WC ones do.

Anyway, i know nothing i say will have any effect, but i hope people who mix would consider all issues instead of just asuming that if nothing dies, everything´s golden.

 

[Nathan]

Animals collected from a single site are already exposed to the same pool of pathogens. They are far less likely to exchange diseases than are two conspecifics from different sites. As for stress and toxicity issues, they have nothing to do with collection site, and everything to do with wise husbandry.

I am certainly not claiming that species may be mixed willy-nilly, or that species should be mixed by inexperienced keepers who do not already have a good knowledge of each species' needs and temperament. Mixing (of conspecifics or heterospecifics) must also always be accompanied by diligent searching for signs of stress, illness, or other negative effects.

I have only kept wild-caught caudates and cannot comment on their parasite and pathogen loads relative to captive-bred individuals. However, my experience with fish is that captive-bred specimens are often diseased or parasite-ridden, at least as frequently as wild-caught specimens are. I treat every animal I bring home the same way, whether WC or CB- a long quarantine period with careful inspection for signs of infection.

I respect your position, I merely think you are a bit to fixated on the single-species-only rule of amphibian husbandry. I agree with you that many factors must be considered in providing proper care to amphibians, especially when in mixed groups, and that survival alone is not indication that all is well. But I believe that, with sufficient care and planning, amphibians may be kept healthy and happy in a mixed-species situation.

 

[Kaysie]

...but it's a nuisance to keep everything at just the right ranges to keep everything well kept

This should be your first hint that something's not quite right. If the animals in the tank don't all share the same requirements already, they shouldn't be in the same tank together.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

And I need another category! I mix normal fish eg. danio, plec types, axies, newts of differing species, a few frogs, etc and all live in harmony & are doing really well...

Is all of that in the same tank? For the love of Pete tell me it's not.

 

[arumanii]

Is all of that in the same tank? For the love of Pete tell me it's not.

Lol-no! Don't think my axies would like anything more active than them taking over the tank n the newts certainly wouldn't want hard boiling!

Sorry for giving everyone the wrong impression (Noob, I am!)

I've got:
allsorts of wild newts n frogs in the wildlife pond (small outdoor but covered so the birds don't take over). There was even a crayfish (not put there by us I hasten to add!) in there at one point but not seen him for years,
koi in the large outdoor pond (with a few overly large goldfish that have somehow ended up joining them!),
two differnt newts, a frog and small fish in my parent's small indoor tank,
4ft tropical tank with Mr Magnus (plec) n Mini Magnus (gibbicerp -not sure how its spelt) who is nearly as big as Mr Magnus anyway now, Dumbledore (a frog that never seems to go out of the water) & a myriad of other fish including two small cats that I'm predicting will soon attempt to take over!,
and, of course, my pride n joys the four axie troubles in lovely 5ft cold water with many small fish ...whose number keeps slowly being depleted (by porky George mainly) but then they're are also regularly breeding (they have an area up high n safe from lazy axies) so rarely need to top them up! I've also got a weather loach in there -is he likely to cause trouble?

Kaysie -No worries, they all need the same kinds of water quality, sand, plants, and each have hiding places - I was more referring to the madness we all seem to take on when we take on loads of different animals at one time - water quality messing (especially with the damn fussy koi), shifting tanks from windows n back to the windows n freezered coke bottles in n out of the axies' tank to try n keep them cool whilst heating the trops and the koi outside!

I've kept most of them for several years now without any real problems, that I've noticed anyway, save a few small problems with fungus on gills n fins.

I fling it out to you guys...who needs moving?
I honestly didn't have a clue the frogs n newts n fish n everything wouldn't live well together -tho I'm sure I checked somewhere when setting it all up -and could obviously do with some help! Have only recently discovered the joys of this forum -know that's no excuse -off to do some reading through old posts.

 

[Critter Mom]

I have 3 Cynops Orientalis and I am worried that whatever plants I may purchase over the internet may unintentionally bring snails. I don't have snails yet, but I have heard in "Species Mixing Disasters" about an incident between a snail and a newt where the snail had the newt's head stuck in it's foot (or hard trap door like apparatus) and the newt suffered from a gash in it's throat and bled to death. I don't think I really want to take a chance like that. I have heard from someone else that their newts will eat the snails, if the snails are small enough. I have read on the internet that snails will breed like crazy and will take over your tank. I have read that some of them are omnivorous and I don't want them nibbling on my nice plants or my newts! I don't want to introduce pathogens to my tank if this is possible from them either. I really don't know what to think. Some people really like snails because they like the extra cleanup crew, extra food source for the newts, and they like watching them. Snails: friends or foes??:lol:

 

[Nathan]

The snails that hitchhike on plants are usually physids (left-handed pond snails, pouch snails) or planorbids (true ramshorn snails). Neither of these groups has opercula ("trapdoors") or sharp spires, and should be harmless to your newts. Pathogens are a possibility, but I think an extremely small one unless they come from a pond with amphibians in it.

These snails are grazers and will not eat live animals. They usually will not eat healthy live plants unless starving; they will eat leftover food, algae, and dead or dying leaves. They can reproduce rapidly, but you'll only have a population explosion if there is a lot of food for them in the tank; if you see lots of snail babies it means you are overfeeding your newts, have an algae issue, or have dying plants.

Notophthalmus like to eat young snails, and I expect Cynops would too.

There are various ways to kill snails before adding plants to the tank, including dips in hydrogen peroxide, potassium permanganate, or dilute chlorine bleach. I haven't tried any of these methods myself and cannot recommend safe/effective dosages, etc.; try searching on one of the planted aquarium forums for more info.

 

[Critter Mom]

I just got at least one tiny pond snail from some Hornwort I purchased, so I guess I will have to change my previous answer. My Chinese FBNs are all now co-habitating with a totally different animal now!

 

[monkeyfrogman28]

What would happen if somone housed a frog and salamander with similiar habitat needs in the same cage??

Just because they are from the same location doesnt mean its ok to mix different species in the same tank. Think about it this way, Nature is huge and fast. A ton of space for each species. Even from the same location. In a tank, you are confining the space 24/7 and these species will continue to run into each other unlike in the wild where they can run away or what ever they do.

My biggest fear with mixing species is risk of disease or illness being given form one specie to the other tank mate. Plus the competion for food,stress, ect.....

 

[Coastal Groovin]

I keep a Ruber and a spotted salamander together with no problems for 6 months. They actually are always next to eachother, no matter how I arrange the the bark and wood in the tank. The spotted is full grown and the ruber is an inch shorter and of course much more slender. So let the yelling begin. I can take it.

 

[Azhael]

It saddens me to see that us anti-mixers are seen as ogres that yell at and condemn every single person who dares talk about mixing....
It´s not like that.

There have been, are, and will be looooooooots of examples of terrible mixes. And there are lots of cases of so-called succesfull cases that are based on very short periods of time or superficial experience.
If we (and i´m obviously including myself) are so "close-minded" is because no matter how you look at it, the safest option will always be not mixing.
Mixing comes with risks, take it or leave it, that´s just how it is....and i, and many others consider that the fewer risks someone takes, the better care will be provided.

We react pasionately against obvious bad mixes because they are a risk for the animals health. And in general we react pasionately to any mix, because for the most part, all the proof to back up mixes is the famous sentence "they seem to do fine", which is far from enough when you see how many times that sentence is used, even when it´s obvious they are not.

I´m sorry you think all we do is yell, but if we are against mixing, i assure you it is because we have the safety of the animals in mind.

This said, each one has the right to do whatever they want, so long as they are not putting the lifes of innocent animals at risk, because that´s just inmoral.
By the way, as pasionately as i defend not-mixing, i acknowledge that some mixes may work fine(given the right conditions).

 

[Nathan]

I at least certainly do not see you or any other anti-mixers as ogres. The great majority of the time, "Do not mix!" is the soundest advice.

Bill, I'll go ahead and be the one to say it: that sounds like a bad mix. The habitat requirements of Ambystoma and Pseudotriton are quite a bit different.

 

[fishkeeper]

I've never seen my Cynops eat snails. Red cherry shrimp however are excellent tankmates but they will occasionally be eaten(based on a change in foraging behavior of my newts that now seems adapted to going for fast moving shrimp).

 

[Ra]

Certain species will do better in a community set up than others. For instance, one could mix Dwarf Sirens with Dwarf Underwater Frogs without problems (unless you intend to breed either species) Yet if you mixed Dwarf Sirens with Fish, the fish may pick at the gill fillaments of the Sirens.
One major worry I would have with mixing Amphibians though, is problems that may arise from different toxins exuded from their skin, and bacteria species that one or another species may contract from others in its tank.
The biggest concern is different species eating and harrassing eachother.
Leaving living food items in the tank shouldnt be a problem, unless they have the capability to harm the amphibians somehow, such as my chewing on their gills or biting them etc.