Axolotl experiments

[limnologist]

If he wants to study the process on his own for his own hands-on education with his animals that he paid for, who are any of you to tell him what to do? I doubt he's going to purposely kill any of his animals, if he's serious about experiments and learning the science behind these creatures than why are you talking about animal cruelty? Raising the temperature over the course of a long time is not animal cruelty, I seriously doubt he's going to boil his axolotls alive. Unless he starts chopping limbs off to see how fast they regenerate then I don't see a problem with it, they're his animals and he won't be putting them through torture. I don't know this dude or how old he is, I'm assuming he's serious about learning and isn't some sick 12 year old with a thing for sadism. And saying that it's been done before is a lot like saying "People tried to cure cancer once it didn't work so why bother doing it again?"
You never know, maybe he could find something that others have missed, maybe he could try something new that other people didn't think to try. Maybe he could discover something that could be beneficial for these creatures in the long run! Don't write people off so fast.

I have finally found a sane person. Thank God!

 

[limnologist]

If you want to be good at anything, not even the best, just competent you need to find out what is already known and extend and if necessary correct that knowledge.

With regard to axolotls their care needs have been worked out thoroughly in 130 years in captivity and people are working on the genetics of the thyroid hormone downregulation behind their lack of metamorphosis.

Heating and lowering water are in my opinion a departure from accepted practice that I know would not get past the ethical committee of most institutions and I personally would not consider it acceptable.

The reason it is not acceptable is the thyroid hormone burst triggered in Tigers by warmth and/or poor water quality does not happen in the axolotl. They just loose form, get tatty gills and die. You can see examples of animals suffering heat stress evey summer (ie twice a year depending on hemisphere) in the help section of this forum. It is not I'm opposed to morphing axolotls, my 5 year old morphed one is in good health, the methodology I used was closely based on published papers.

Educated experiments on growth rates of juveniles on various alternative diets, all diets being on superficial examination reasonable ones, would be useful and ethical. You will not get far with experiments based on a single animal as growth rates vary between individuals. Earthworms vs Pellets vs Daphnia vs xxx would be a good place to start.

There is plenty of room for useful ethical experiments, why embark on an axolotl killing spree?

I have kept axolotls for the greater part of 16 years, I have only had one catch some sickness (still unsure what it was) and only 2 have died (they were my first ones).

 

[limnologist]

And this is the person who has today posted elsewhere on this forum that he has never harmed any of his many pets??!!!
Are you seriously suggesting what you are planning to do here is not going to harm these axolotls? What on earth gives you the right to torture and probably kill these creatures? And for what?
You have some sort of superiority complex that makes you a dangerous person to have any control over other living creatures.

Indeed I have never harmed any of my pets. As long as I do it properly, if/once it gets dangerous for the animal I will immediately stop. The same thing that gives you the right to scorn me for being curious. I find it interesting that someone who claims to share a special love for these animals would so easily accuse another of such a thing. I find it hard to believe you would have the audacity, I wish to keep this informal, and curtious. No accusations of a person being terrible, just a simple disagreement. One person putting there knowledge and whit against another's. Aren't we all civilized human beings?

 

[limnologist]

Are you people serious? Are you stupid? This is like saying if people want to torture their own children, that they gave birth to and pay to feed and house, then who are we to comment? Or beat their wives or starve their dogs. 'Ownership' does not permit cruelty.
How can you say if the temperature is raised over the course of a long time, it's not animal cruelty? That is the most ridiculous statement - it is the end temperature he intends that makes it cruel, regardless of how gradually it is done. And he is putting the animals through torture. Any progress they make towards morphing represents the poor creatures' desperate efforts to escape the conditions he is creating for them.
And I am not writing this guy off so fast - pretty much everything he has posted on this site has raised my eyebrows at the very least. There is a serious ethical deficiency in this person's thinking that he seeks to justify under cover of 'science'.
And yes, this proposal is sadistic.

I am sorry you feel this way. I love my companions and wish them no harm, but I cant shrug this intense curiosity. I might call it the american curiosity? Its like when someone takes a piece of junk into a garage to turn it into the next greatest computer or some such thing. I respect your care for these wonderful creations from God and wish to assure I will not allow any harm to befall my pets and that the second I note stress in any of them, I will terminate the process.

 

[limnologist]

Just to make sure I'm following your logic here: it sounds as though you are suggesting that raising an axie's water temperature to levels that stress or even kill axolotls is it not animal cruelty IF IT IS DONE SLOWLY?

If it is done naturally and correctly.

 

[limnologist]

Jonjey, the OP HAS elaborated. He has made clear his reasons for wanting to keep axies in dangerous conditions. And if you read his other posts on this site, I think it becomes obvious that this is a person who thinks it is okay to do whatever he wants to satisfy his curiosity.
However, I agree with you. It has all been said in this thread. Others have made it clear what they think of endlessly repeating cruel experiments others have already done, as well as pointing out that this proposal would not pass an ethics committee at any reputable institution. So I think, as you say, there is no point continuing with this discussion. I can only hope the OP ceases and desists, and that if he doesn't, some animal welfare body steps in and stops him.
And just to be clear, my original comment related to the idea that doing something cruel slowly somehow made it less cruel. If stupid was too harsh a word, I apologise. But certainly illogical fits.

Again, I respect your concern for these animals, but, since you are a person who refuses to listen to others and humble yourself I will have to apologize to you for distressing you. By the way, I am not making an accusation when I say you are stubborn or don't listen to other, it is very evident in your messages.

In the end I apologize for distressing you and assure you that no harm will become of my pets.

 

[limnologist]

That has never been proven. Injecting hormones is the only real safe way to morph an axolotl. It has been studied that axolotls are basically tiger salamanders that developed low levels of hormones needed to morph while also developing sex organs in the larval stage. Any morphed axolotl that dies early is usually caused by the poor conditions that caused it to morph in the first place.



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exactly, but Im trying to elaborate on why they developed such low levels of that hormone.

 

[limnologist]

Honestly OP, you have to be a kid. There's no way an actual scientist would have such a juvenile outlook on research. Clearly you have an interest in this topic so here's my advice to you as a student currently studying at university- Read. Read whatever you can. Then if you're still interested consider going to school to get proper training. It's not even so much the fact that you'll be putting the axolotls at risk, it's that you don't understand how experimentation works. It's a large project that requires lots of assistance and prior research. You'll need proper facilities and tools, as well as controls and an understanding of the scientific method. We're not trying to discourage you, just wake you up a bit.

I am dishonored with that belief. thank you for the advice, I never have and never will stop reading.

 

[limnologist]

In the end ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank you for you advice, comments, and thoughts. I will have you know that perhaps "experiment" was a broad word. Im not doing anything extreme. I am safely fidgeting with the concept of the missing thyroid hormones. it interests me, and I am certain that lowering the water so there is about an inch of water , adding more terrestrial area, and raising the temp to the 70's should be considered abuse or illegal experimentation. If the lot of you are so passionate about the animals, you should be dsitressing about the care conditions of the animals in mexican restauraunts where the animals are eventually eaten.
I have yet to do anything with my animals for I am very busy, so worry not.
I have more to say but I am busy and may not get back on for a while, so I ask for my pardon.
Thank you

 

[NadeZ]

Tbh I'm inclined to assume that you're trolling.

However, if you are serious then don't waste your time and cause unnecessary stress to these creatures. Read this, it covers the metamorphosis of axolotls rather well and contains many references to studies that include the affect of environmental factors on metamorphosis.
You will not gain any credit for carrying out amateur experiments, without ethical evaluation, to test a hypothesis that has already been studied and published. If you want to contribute to this field, apply to a center of research where your efforts can be directed to valid areas of investigation.

 

[rachel1]

Already been done. This This stuff is all you need.

 

[keiko]

Oh great now I have the axolotl song stuck in my head. Again.

I find it pretty ridiculous that the OP came back to answer some posts but didn't answer to any of those that actually asked him questions about his "experiments"... Tells something in my opinion.

 

[Bellabelloo]

I am closing this post as I think just about everything that can be said has been said.