Axolotl experiments

[Bellabelloo]

A number of posts have been deleted as they are lending nothing to the original posters statement.
Everyone has a right to respond to this, but please refrain from being rude to one another. I suggest that we wait for limnologist to respond and explain the reasoning for this post.

 

[Sweetie]

Raising the temperature over the course of a long time is not animal cruelty.

Just to make sure I'm following your logic here: it sounds as though you are suggesting that raising an axie's water temperature to levels that stress or even kill axolotls is it not animal cruelty IF IT IS DONE SLOWLY?

 

[Jonjey]

Lol yet the post calling me stupid wasn't removed by the admin.

Just to make sure I'm following your logic here: it sounds as though you are suggesting that raising an axie's water temperature to levels that stress or even kill axolotls is it not animal cruelty IF IT IS DONE SLOWLY?

If you had read anything I've actually said so far rather than picking and choosing pointless things to try to tear down my logic, you'd know that your entire rebuttal is pointless as I have stated multiple times that "to levels that stress of even kill axolotls" would not be in the equation at all. But good job continuing to carry on with something after an admin has deleted all of it. I'm done here, this argument is pointless and does not help this forum or this thread. You're over worked and mad at me for saying to hold off on accusations until he elaborates, that's not a justifiable reason to be mad at someone.

 

[Sweetie]

Jonjey, the OP HAS elaborated. He has made clear his reasons for wanting to keep axies in dangerous conditions. And if you read his other posts on this site, I think it becomes obvious that this is a person who thinks it is okay to do whatever he wants to satisfy his curiosity.
However, I agree with you. It has all been said in this thread. Others have made it clear what they think of endlessly repeating cruel experiments others have already done, as well as pointing out that this proposal would not pass an ethics committee at any reputable institution. So I think, as you say, there is no point continuing with this discussion. I can only hope the OP ceases and desists, and that if he doesn't, some animal welfare body steps in and stops him.
And just to be clear, my original comment related to the idea that doing something cruel slowly somehow made it less cruel. If stupid was too harsh a word, I apologise. But certainly illogical fits.

 

[vlcuXX]

Just here to say that PETA harms animals more than helps them, so don't put them in an animal welfare category.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[Crptid]

haven't most experiments of this type been unsuccessful; reducing water, adding iodine, and trying to stress the axolotl out of the water? from what i have read the only method that shows any real success is regular hormone injections and even then morphed axies only live for a very short time.

 

[Boomsloth]

haven't most experiments of this type been unsuccessful; reducing water, adding iodine, and trying to stress the axolotl out of the water? from what i have read the only method that shows any real success is regular hormone injections and even then morphed axies only live for a very short time.

That has never been proven. Injecting hormones is the only real safe way to morph an axolotl. It has been studied that axolotls are basically tiger salamanders that developed low levels of hormones needed to morph while also developing sex organs in the larval stage. Any morphed axolotl that dies early is usually caused by the poor conditions that caused it to morph in the first place.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crptid]

Ok, though i did read an article somewhere that indicated that morphed axolotls had a reduced immune system.

 

[Sanshouo]

Honestly OP, you have to be a kid. There's no way an actual scientist would have such a juvenile outlook on research. Clearly you have an interest in this topic so here's my advice to you as a student currently studying at university- Read. Read whatever you can. Then if you're still interested consider going to school to get proper training. It's not even so much the fact that you'll be putting the axolotls at risk, it's that you don't understand how experimentation works. It's a large project that requires lots of assistance and prior research. You'll need proper facilities and tools, as well as controls and an understanding of the scientific method. We're not trying to discourage you, just wake you up a bit.

 

[Gail24]

I have my beautiful Axolotls because i love to care for these amazing little creatures ,i think is disgusting that you want to experiment on them SHAME ON YOU

 

[keiko]

Have you planned all of the steps you're going to take and given those to scientists for feed back? What other studies are you using as reference?

How many axolotls are you going to experiment on? If it's not a significant amount you can't draw any conclusions from what happens to them -> your experiment is pointless.

How big is your control group and how are you treating them? Again your experiment is pointless if your control group isn't well thought out.

Have you applied permits to keep test animals? It's illegal if you haven't.

Have you applied permits from ethical committees? Again illegal if you haven't.

How are you going to analyze your data? Are you going to replicate your experiments to make sure they are right? How and where will you present your findings?

 

[sde]

Ok, I wasn't going to post on this thread and get all tangled up in it, because I have already don't that with his other thread. However I am getting pretty tired of all the meanness, no, not negativity, but plain old rudeness and meanness.

If you are going to disagree with what they are doing - as I do and most of you do - please at least give them constructive criticism or something, rather than just being rude and putting them down.
Awhile ago I asked about something of a similar nature, to help in my research of amphibians. I hadn't done it, and was only asking, but the reaction was the same. Rudeness. And I can tell you first hand that it really put me down, and I all together stopped researching amphibians. Now I am glad that I was corrected by fellow members, advising me not to do it, because it wasn't a necessary thing to do, but being rude doesn't help anyone, it just upsets people. So please stop being so rude, and if you have constructive criticism, go ahead and share, but if all your saying is "that's a stupid bad idea, your being so cruel to the animal, you shouldn't be keeping an axolotl at all" than why post? Its already been posted for one, and it doesn't help anything.

keiko's post is a perfect example of what actually helps the OP realize the problems here. Some good constructive criticism. Thanks keiko.

Honestly OP, you have to be a kid.

Sorry, but I take offense to that. Kids aren't the only ones who do stupid thing, yes, they probably do them more often, but its not like adults don't do stuff like this. Kids are often put down on this site because they are considered inexperienced, but I know "kids" who are more experienced that adults on this site. I just don't like it when people think of kids as irresponsible and dumb, that's judging a class by a member. -Seth

 

[Sweetie]

If you are going to disagree with what they are doing - as I do and most of you do - please at least give them constructive criticism or something, rather than just being rude and putting them down.

keiko's post is a perfect example of what actually helps the OP realize the problems here. Some good constructive criticism. Thanks keiko.

I agree totally Seth. As someone who did get a bit heated in this thread, my only excuse is passion. I love animals so much that I can get overwrought in their defence. But on a public forum such as this one, constructive criticism and helpful advice is definitely the way to go. I have already apologised to the moderator, privately, and to the OP, publicly. But I stand chastised.

Sorry, but I take offense to that. Kids aren't the only ones who do stupid thing, yes, they probably do them more often, but its not like adults don't do stuff like this. Kids are often put down on this site because they are considered inexperienced, but I know "kids" who are more experienced that adults on this site. I just don't like it when people think of kids as irresponsible and dumb, that's judging a class by a member. -Seth

This is a very important point Seth makes. It's not just about prejudice. It's also the fact that the curiosity of young people is invaluable because so many 'kids' think outside the boxes adults get mentally trapped in. They often have an ability to see the obvious that adults overlook (see for example the classic story of "The Emperor's New Clothes"). This can give them quite a head start when it comes to scientific research and making discoveries. So yeah. Don't underestimate kids just because they lack experience. They can more than make up for it in other important ways. And we adults need to be particularly careful that our criticism is constructive and doesn't discourage kids from an interest in and curiosity about the world around them.

I'll get off my soapbox now. But good for you, Seth. Valid points both of them. Thanks for making them.

 

[EmbryH]

I think this is utterly ridiculous. I highly doubt OP has the necessary license to conduct experiments on vertebrates, much less the qualifications, training, and facilities necessary.

I can't believe people are trying to high-horse this situation by saying "who are we to judge?" People can't just do whatever they what to living feeling creatures! If I wanted to see how many times I could punch a horse in the face before it went blind, I would be a monster, regardless of whether or not I misused the banner of "for science." I certainly hope to put off the OP, or anyone else who would do such senseless and cruel "experiments" on innocent animals.

We already know what happens when you raise the temperatures on an axolotl. It gets sick. And what's this about a "single prey" diet? You know a lot of people feed their axolotls just one thing or the other, right? My adults all get earthworms, with little variation. I'm paranoid about parasites from feeder animals and I haven't found a good source yet.

This sounds wildly irresponsible, pointless, and cruel. Please reconsider your ownership of other living creatures, as you appear to be incredibly unfit for the privilege of keeping them.

 

[vainglory]

I think a humane way to test the one prey diets would be to poll everyone here on what they feed their axolotls and get their sex, age, and size.
It does seem like temperature raising and water lowering sounds rather inhumane. Perhaps add temperature kept to your poll? Then you could arrange your data and see if any trends show up.

 

[Sweetie]

Of course, this would not be a scientifically valid method, given the number of variables that could not be eliminated - so it would be impossible to causally link diet to size or growth or anything else in such a scenario. In any case, I'm pretty sure both these questions have already been polled here. I know the temperature one has been - there's been a very recent poll on it. In fact, I think that's the point of much of this thread - everything the OP is suggesting here has already been researched and the answers pretty well documented. It is, as Auntie Jude says, cruel and pointless to revisit these matters, regardless of the cloak of 'scientific research'.

 

[limnologist]

Limnologist, out of curiosity why announce that this is your intention to do this now? Would it not be wiser to have perhaps to have tried this 'experiment' first, documented every step and then produced your findings?
Reading this post initially, it makes me wonder if this is some kid wanting to experiment on their animals and cause them unnecessary suffering. Do you have any recognised scientific background qualifications?

well, before I begin, I would like to collect as many comments, tips and any advice possible. thus I have posted my intentions. I hope I am not considered a kid as I am 22. I wish to cause no harm but to learn more about axolotls and how to conduct experiments, I have done extensive reading from various books and have found that it is not the same as a hands-on experiment.

 

[limnologist]

And by announcing it on a public forum you are just inviting someome to forward it to the ASPCA or PETA or some other animal welfare group.

It was a reckless thing to do, maybe I will phrase it as "theoretical" next time.

 

[limnologist]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he have to have official qualifications to run an experiment. But...



... the difference between this experiment and his frog experiment is that this has been done before many times and all results he would get are already documented very thoroughly.

Limnologist, part of being a scientist is learning information from other scientists. When deciding whether or not an experiment would be moral please consider whether or not it would advance knowledge currently available.

Also if you repeat your frog experiment make sure you have a control, otherwise your data won't mean much!

I have already read and heard most of what is to be said of such an experiment and have found it a worthy experiment to practice with.

 

[limnologist]

I certainly wouldn't sell him one of mine. I don't see any need to subject them to such inappropriate treatment. Everyone knows that the end result is probable sickness or death of the animal. Also in another post he is trying to get rid of the tiger salamanders he morphed because he "isn't interested in keeping terrestrial salamanders". Torturing animals for your personal amusement and calling it science gives legitimate scientists a bad name. Has he read the legislation on the criteria an experiment must meet to avoid an animal cruelty charge in his state? In my state the regulations are extremely limiting and specific. And an experiment that has already been done to gain no new knowledge doesn't meet the criteria.

It is sad to find people who could be amazingly capable pet keepers attack someone who wishes to learn about that which they love so much. With all due respect, I am (or so I believe) perfectly capable of caring for my pets and have had many years of experience with many different types of creatures. I do not and refuse not to cause harm to my animals and the only reason I would attempt such an experiment is because I need the experience and because I know my animals can withstand tinkering.