Axolotl experiments

[limnologist]

I have been interested in a few new topics for my various axolotls and wish to do a few educated experiments.

The first will be to find out how easily an axoltl will morph, and why they don't in the wild. I will slowly raise the water temps and lower the water levels, if I'm successful, the axolotl will do what my tiger salamanders did and morph. Many of you may condone this, but I'm doing it purely to document the process. For those who care, I will keep you updated as well as possible. I should say I will be doing more various experiments as time passes such as putting my axolotl on a single prey item diet, seeing how intensely changing the diet of axolotl prey changes the axolotls health, ect.

I will hopefully be repeating the pacman eating a yptoad experiment to prove that the pacman absorbs the toxins and uses them.

 

[auntiejude]

Why do you want to do this when it has already been done hundreds of times under lab conditions?

Your time and effort would be better spent reading scientific papers than experimenting.

 

[Jonjey]

Careful they'll call you evil and say you're unfit to own axolotls. Good luck on your tests!

 

[limnologist]

Why do you want to do this when it has already been done hundreds of times under lab conditions?

Your time and effort would be better spent reading scientific papers than experimenting.

If one wants to be the best at limnology, one must learn to do things such as these.

 

[limnologist]

Careful they'll call you evil and say you're unfit to own axolotls. Good luck on your tests!

Already happening haha. Thank you very much

 

[Bellabelloo]

Limnologist, out of curiosity why announce that this is your intention to do this now? Would it not be wiser to have perhaps to have tried this 'experiment' first, documented every step and then produced your findings?
Reading this post initially, it makes me wonder if this is some kid wanting to experiment on their animals and cause them unnecessary suffering. Do you have any recognised scientific background qualifications?

 

[auntiejude]

And by announcing it on a public forum you are just inviting someome to forward it to the ASPCA or PETA or some other animal welfare group.

 

[GlowingFauxPas]

Do you have any recognised scientific background qualifications?

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he have to have official qualifications to run an experiment. But...

If one wants to be the best at limnology, one must learn to do things such as these.

... the difference between this experiment and his frog experiment is that this has been done before many times and all results he would get are already documented very thoroughly.

Limnologist, part of being a scientist is learning information from other scientists. When deciding whether or not an experiment would be moral please consider whether or not it would advance knowledge currently available.

Also if you repeat your frog experiment make sure you have a control, otherwise your data won't mean much!

 

[piaalexa]

If one wants to be the best at limnology, one must learn to do things such as these.

What kind of limnology are you an expert in? There are many many different fields in limnology, and I'm assuming you are wanting to become a aquatic ecologist rather than study the geological or physical studies of lake properties. If you are at an university you should have access to plenty of journals that do not require you doing the experiments yourself, unless axolotls and their lake environments are the focus of a research project you are doing?

If you are doing these experiments to "purely document the process" I think your reasons are not compatible with the welfare of your axolotls (and are not going to make you a better limnologist). If you read many of the older forum posts on this very topic they all say morphing can never be done in the ways you are outlying. Just lowering the water level and temperature is not going to cut it. Since it's an unnatural process, you have to make unfavourable and uncomfortable conditions to force your axolotl to morph, which always ends in distress and premature death (which is cruel).

 

[rachel1]

Careful they'll call you evil and say you're unfit to own axolotls. Good luck on your tests!

I certainly wouldn't sell him one of mine. I don't see any need to subject them to such inappropriate treatment. Everyone knows that the end result is probable sickness or death of the animal. Also in another post he is trying to get rid of the tiger salamanders he morphed because he "isn't interested in keeping terrestrial salamanders". Torturing animals for your personal amusement and calling it science gives legitimate scientists a bad name. Has he read the legislation on the criteria an experiment must meet to avoid an animal cruelty charge in his state? In my state the regulations are extremely limiting and specific. And an experiment that has already been done to gain no new knowledge doesn't meet the criteria.

 

[Skudo09]

I have to agree with most people here. I can't see any justifiable reason to subject a living creature to such treatment, particularly as it has already been done. There is no benefit to the axolotl or the species as a whole.

 

[usafaux2004]

I'm not a PETA member, but seriously...the process has been documented, probably thousands of times over a course of 100+ years. What's your real goal?

 

[Jonjey]

If he wants to study the process on his own for his own hands-on education with his animals that he paid for, who are any of you to tell him what to do? I doubt he's going to purposely kill any of his animals, if he's serious about experiments and learning the science behind these creatures than why are you talking about animal cruelty? Raising the temperature over the course of a long time is not animal cruelty, I seriously doubt he's going to boil his axolotls alive. Unless he starts chopping limbs off to see how fast they regenerate then I don't see a problem with it, they're his animals and he won't be putting them through torture. I don't know this dude or how old he is, I'm assuming he's serious about learning and isn't some sick 12 year old with a thing for sadism. And saying that it's been done before is a lot like saying "People tried to cure cancer once it didn't work so why bother doing it again?"
You never know, maybe he could find something that others have missed, maybe he could try something new that other people didn't think to try. Maybe he could discover something that could be beneficial for these creatures in the long run! Don't write people off so fast.

 

[texa]

Also speaking as a scientist, I see no real reason to repeat these experiments. You realise that a real study has controls, and proper statistical analysis of results, and should be guided by other studies. As most people have said on here, these type of studies have been done, and the outcome is not usually beneficial to the health of the animal. If you care for what must be your pets, this is an unwise and potentially unethical route to take.

Also, consider that to properly conduct an experiment on an animal (especially vertebrates) scientists must apply for permits and adhere to extremely strict rules with regards to welfare.

 

[auntiejude]

...who are any of you to tell him what to do?

Responsible pet owners who don't want to see an animal suffer.
Proper animal research is licensed and approved by ethics committees, professional groups, and conducted by people with relevant training and experience in the field.

if he's serious about experiments and learning the science behind these creatures

So, if I wanted to learn more about nuclear fission I should go build an A-bomb in my back garden rather than read a whole bunch of text books and scientic papers, maybe get a degree in nuclear physics, to learn for myself what others have concluded since the 1930s - yes?

These proposed 'experiments' are nothing more than a childish 'what happens if I do this' approach, there is no real science in it. Curiosity is not science.

Unless, of course, you're studying the social media reaction to proposed animal cruelty...

 

[Jonjey]

Just kidding I love peta

 

[oceanblue]

If one wants to be the best at limnology, one must learn to do things such as these.

If you want to be good at anything, not even the best, just competent you need to find out what is already known and extend and if necessary correct that knowledge.

With regard to axolotls their care needs have been worked out thoroughly in 130 years in captivity and people are working on the genetics of the thyroid hormone downregulation behind their lack of metamorphosis.

Heating and lowering water are in my opinion a departure from accepted practice that I know would not get past the ethical committee of most institutions and I personally would not consider it acceptable.

The reason it is not acceptable is the thyroid hormone burst triggered in Tigers by warmth and/or poor water quality does not happen in the axolotl. They just loose form, get tatty gills and die. You can see examples of animals suffering heat stress evey summer (ie twice a year depending on hemisphere) in the help section of this forum. It is not I'm opposed to morphing axolotls, my 5 year old morphed one is in good health, the methodology I used was closely based on published papers.

Educated experiments on growth rates of juveniles on various alternative diets, all diets being on superficial examination reasonable ones, would be useful and ethical. You will not get far with experiments based on a single animal as growth rates vary between individuals. Earthworms vs Pellets vs Daphnia vs xxx would be a good place to start.

There is plenty of room for useful ethical experiments, why embark on an axolotl killing spree?

 

[Liz Roome]

I understand that you feel you need to learn by doing, but intentionally morphing an axolotl is intentionally subjecting the animal to cruelty. Just the same as if you couldn't be bothered to clean him or feed him, It's neglect.

I noticed some people saying that it is your animals, and you can do as you please (in a nut shell) which I don't think is right either. It's like writing a post saying you plan to mistreat your dog, cat, guinea pig, parent, partner. It's a living thing, not a plaything for you to experiment on. Your Axolotl trusts you to care for him/her, since it is captive it places trust in you because you have forced it to, not because it has a choice. That's part of owning a pet and being responsible.

I also understand that you probably don't care about anyone else opinion since you already stated what you are going to do, it wasn't a question, which makes me wonder if you are really just looking for a reaction.

You should honestly think about your responsibilities to your pet, and what harm you are causing him. What good can really come from this?

 

[Sweetie]

I have been interested in a few new topics for my various axolotls and wish to do a few educated experiments.

The first will be to find out how easily an axoltl will morph, and why they don't in the wild. I will slowly raise the water temps and lower the water levels, if I'm successful, the axolotl will do what my tiger salamanders did and morph.

And this is the person who has today posted elsewhere on this forum that he has never harmed any of his many pets??!!!
Are you seriously suggesting what you are planning to do here is not going to harm these axolotls? What on earth gives you the right to torture and probably kill these creatures? And for what?
You have some sort of superiority complex that makes you a dangerous person to have any control over other living creatures.

 

[Sweetie]

If he wants to study the process on his own for his own hands-on education with his animals that he paid for, who are any of you to tell him what to do? I doubt he's going to purposely kill any of his animals, if he's serious about experiments and learning the science behind these creatures than why are you talking about animal cruelty? Raising the temperature over the course of a long time is not animal cruelty, I seriously doubt he's going to boil his axolotls alive. Unless he starts chopping limbs off to see how fast they regenerate then I don't see a problem with it, they're his animals and he won't be putting them through torture. I don't know this dude or how old he is, I'm assuming he's serious about learning and isn't some sick 12 year old with a thing for sadism. And saying that it's been done before is a lot like saying "People tried to cure cancer once it didn't work so why bother doing it again?"
You never know, maybe he could find something that others have missed, maybe he could try something new that other people didn't think to try. Maybe he could discover something that could be beneficial for these creatures in the long run! Don't write people off so fast.

Are you people serious? Are you stupid? This is like saying if people want to torture their own children, that they gave birth to and pay to feed and house, then who are we to comment? Or beat their wives or starve their dogs. 'Ownership' does not permit cruelty.
How can you say if the temperature is raised over the course of a long time, it's not animal cruelty? That is the most ridiculous statement - it is the end temperature he intends that makes it cruel, regardless of how gradually it is done. And he is putting the animals through torture. Any progress they make towards morphing represents the poor creatures' desperate efforts to escape the conditions he is creating for them.
And I am not writing this guy off so fast - pretty much everything he has posted on this site has raised my eyebrows at the very least. There is a serious ethical deficiency in this person's thinking that he seeks to justify under cover of 'science'.
And yes, this proposal is sadistic.