Another cycling question thread

[MereB]

:lol: Now I'm confused

I'd change some water to bring the Ammonia and Nitrite down a bit. Your nitrite and nitrite are way higher than you would expect to see at the 1 week mark. I've seen water sources with Nitrate levels of 20 before so it's possible that yours has Nitrates in it already but the Nitrite confuses me. It's rising much faster than it should be and is already well into the deadly range. There should not be any Nitrite being produced until the ammonia bacteria have reached a fairly significant number and are consuming the ammonia and even then it should rise slowly. Readings of 3 are astronomical in any tank let alone one that should be in the early stages of cycling.

Usually we see
Phase one Ammonia rises and the ammonia bacteria is established
NH3 ~ Rising and finally peaking before beginning to drop in phase 2
NO2 ~ Zero
NO3 ~ Zero (unless it is present in your water source)

Phase 2 Nitrite Rises and the Nitrite bacteria is established
NH3 ~ Returns to be a consistent zero
NO2 ~ Slowly rises to a peak as the ammonia drops
NO3 ~ Zero (unless it is present in your water source)

Phase 3 All bacteria is established and tank is cycled
NH3 ~ Remains Zero
NO2 ~ Drops to and remains at Zero
NO3 ~ Slowly rising from previous levels

Each phase takes a week or two the get through depending on temperatures, available food and various other factors that effect the growth rate of these bacteria.

Yours seems to have taken less than a week to get through Phase one and be well on it's way to Phase 3 with and EXTREMELY early and very high peak in Nitrite.

Still it could be the difference in accuracy of strips vs's drops. It will be interesting to see what the new tests show as levels for Nirtate and nitrite.
You might want to test your tap water (without any dechlorinator) for Nitrite and Nitrate just to make sure they are 0 in your water or at the very least so you know what your base levels are.

Was this tank set up from scratch with all new materials (substrate, plants, ornaments etc.) and an unused/new filter? Things like sand from an established tank or a filter that has been running on an existing tank will change the results a bit and would account for the presence of NO2 and NO3 before the NH3 has finished doing it's thing. Using things from established tanks will sped the process up but it will also throw your test results off from the norm.

 

[grius]

Haha....What can i say, i know my thing=)
The tests just arrived. I give you some answers later.

I thought about one thing though. As i have a ittle amont ammonia in my tapwater, and have had the tank running for 4days first without adding ammonia, can that have something to do with this weird values?

Actually i have a root, some grave on top on my new sand and also a thermometer from a tankt that had been up and running a month, but if it was cycled i dont know. An air pump too. I had snails in it for a while..

 

[grius]

Im back from some test. This was after a litle water change though. And after i toked these test i changed some more and added just 1drop ammonia. Test it again tomorrow. I hope i did not do anything stupid. Perhaps this is going extremly bad, maybe because i use pure ammonia?

NO3=70 . Extremly high, therefor another change.

NO2=1,5

Ammonia=0.1.. Seems easier to read when i get lower values.

I have 0 in both NO3 and NO2 in my tap water.

 

[Kaysie]

Pure ammonia isn't recommended because it's so strong.

 

[grius]

Pure ammonia isn't recommended because it's so strong.

Yes it seem so. I only followed that link and thought it would work..Shall i do a larger water change? I continue cycle using food from now on.

 

[carsona246]

If you google how much to dilute it pure ammonia works just fine. From a quick google search I think its like 5 drops per 10 gallon. How much ammonia were you adding before?

 

[grius]

If you google how much to dilute it pure ammonia works just fine. From a quick google search I think its like 5 per 10 gallon. How much ammonia were you adding before?

I first added 5drops to 10gallon, and when i saw that it got to high i changed to 3drops. Exactly as you have read.

 

[MereB]

I first added 5drops to 10gallon, and when i saw that it got to high i changed to 3drops. Exactly as you have read.

I assume after your last 2 water changes your Nitrite and Nitrate are back under control. You're ammonia isn't high... it's kind of on the low side actually so add I guess 2-3 drops of your ammonia and just leave it for a few days.
Test for all 3 each day, a couple of times a day if you like, and change 20% of your water ONLY if any of the following 3 things happen.
1. Ammonia gets to 0.8 or higher
2. Nitrite gets to 0.5 or higher
3. Nitrate gets to 40 or higher.
and just watch and see what the #'s are doing. You can post them each day if you like but just leave it alone for a few days (except if one or more gets too high) and see what it does.

Your root will be releasing small amounts of ammonia into the water (I'm assuming it's off an actual tree)so I would expect it to rise a little or at least remain stable for a while but it's not a problem if it drops, we want it to drop
The bacteria on the elements from the other tank will also play a roll but it will be fairly minimal for now and won't throw things off too much.

We are looking for tell tale patterns in your results and that is easier to see over a few days. I know it's hard to leave it alone but it's only way to get an accurate look at what is happening in the tank.

Mere.

 

[grius]

MereB.

Yes i have better values today, but to low ammonia as you said. So i added 2drops. I dont even know wy i thought about use some other source when it is so easy to controll with drops. I only have a hard time make up my mind with all information from so many. And i supose this dont have to do with a high Nitrat?
I keep you updated.

NO3 = 35
NO2 = 0.3
NH3/NH4 = under 0.1

I keep water temp around 26-27 degree.

Call me :wacko: if you want, It´s my treat...

 

[MereB]

You're not wacko

26 degrees.... well 24-25 actually is the optimum temperature for cycling as that is the temp at which the bacteria multiply the fastest. If you can call doubling every 15-17 hours fast
It would go some way to explaining the speed at which your tank is going through the process :happy: See you should never just assume someone is cycling at optimum axie temps (16-19 ish) Just remember to drop it down before you add an axie to it or you will kill it.

The Nitrate will be coming from the bacteria on the old root as well as all over your tank by now as well as your filter. Helped along by you adding elements from an established tank.
Some nitrite will also be being produced by your ever growing bacteria colony, the ones that are consuming the ammonia you are adding.

It can be hard to figure out what to do when you get 5 different opinions from 5 different people. Cycling and how to go about it is STILL a hottly debated topic in the aquarium world and will be for quite some time to come I suspect
If it helps I've been keeping aquariums since early 2000 and My husband has been keeping them for over 30 years and up until a few years ago had worked in the pet/aquarium for most of those years. He's done the cycling with pure ammonia thing too but now prefers to use a few guppies as an ammonia source. Depends on what you prefer I guess :happy:
Last night He seemed to think that at a higher Temp it was possible for your tank to be further along than first though but we both assumed it would be pretty cold water so dismissed it

Just keep adding ammonia as you need to, I'm guessing you've had your spike at this point, and wait for the Nitrite to drop to zero, at which point I suspect you will be adding ammonia daily because it is all being consumed, and you should be cycled and ready for your new pet after a quick water change to bring the Nitrate down again. Live plants will also help to keep Nitrate down as they will consume some of it as food.

If you're in doubt you can smell you filter media, very carefully, and it should smell quite earthy, kind of like the floor of a rainforest mixed with the smell of tank water. Just try not to dislodge everything if you do

You also mentioned gravel earlier. It will need to be bigger than an inch and a half in all directions to be safe for axies. You would be amazed just what an axie can swallow and it will cause them huge problems and even death if they swallow rocks that they can not pass out the back end. Aquarium gravel is particularly bad, it's just the right size to swallow with food and get stuck on the way out.

 

[grius]

Hehe

Is has been a little missunderstandning here. I think i forgotten to mention when i first wrote in this thread that i cycle for Cynops ensicauda. But i did not intend to qontinue with so many questions. So no Axelot, hope that is okey:happy: I have fine sand with a little gravel sprinkle over, and some flat rocks scattered.

Aaha, i did not know that. I was, as with the pure ammonia, also following the temp from that article i have post a link to. It may be as you say that my high temp have speed this up a little, but im not done in long ways i quess. Yes i read that a slow drop is important.

It can be hard to figure out what to do when you get 5 different opinions from 5 different people. Cycling and how to go about it is STILL a hottly debated topic in the aquarium world and will be for quite some time to come I suspect
If it helps I've been keeping aquariums since early 2000 and My husband has been keeping them for over 30 years and up until a few years ago had worked in the pet/aquarium for most of those years

I

Exactly. To many diferent answers make it a litle hard. But i trust you guys of curse, from 11-30years gives much experience=) I do also find cycling a wery interesting subject..

I have some testing today. Im curious about ammonia level, see so it diden´t got to high from yesterdays 2drops. But i think that is under controll. I have added some plants recently.

 

[MereB]

I suspect your ammonia will be fine :happy: it seems you are well on your way to cycled. The rest should be relatively complication and confusion free for this tank.

Nah I don't care if it's not axies going in the tank :happy: Assumed again since it's the Axolotol forums we're on right now but it doesn't bother me one bit. I'm sure there will be other who will find it useful before it drops off page on of the thread list.

Cycling is a fascinating subject. It appeals to my science background :happy:

 

[grius]

Assumed again since it's the Axolotol forums we're on right now

I understand you did that But it`s here i got most answers and very helpfull interesting information!! So thanks!

chemistry was never a strong school subject for me, but that have changed a little latest time hehe.

 

[MereB]

Glad to be of some help.
I don't remember learning the cycle at school either. Husband taught me about all this stuff at the start but I have always loved Chemistry and threads like this appeal to me as a challenge to solve. Always fun to put head knowledge to good use

 

[grius]

Okey time for a little update. I reallly have probleme to lower my Nitrat

Day 9. i did two test with many ours between.

NO2 = 0,3 - 0,3
NO3 = 35 - 40, water change ca 20%
NH3 = 0,1 Then i added 3drops and got 0,7

Day 10. 2-3 tests because i was curious about NH3.

NO2 = 0,3 - 0,3
NO3 = 70, water change ca 20% and 50
NH3 = 0,1, added 3drops, some ours later 0,4, added 3 more drops.

Today one test so far.

NO2 = 0,3
NO3 = 60
NH3 = 0,1, added 3drops and shall now do a water change and add 3 drops. I dont know wy i allready put new ammnia in whern i have another change to do. Ups.

Ammonia goes away fast! But nitrate is a probleme. And if i dont have mentioned, i only have 10gallon in this tank, so thats a very small water amount.

 

[carsona246]

It looks like your on your way. I wouldn't be too concerned with nitrate level as long as you do a large water change before your axolotl arrives.

 

[grius]

I have done some water changes latest days, and still i get a high nitrate. So maybe i need to do a larger change soon? Or just whait untill nitrit and ammonia show 0 value?

 

[Kaysie]

It's better to do frequent small changes than it is to do infrequent large changes while you're cycling.

 

[grius]

Im just asking because i have such a high Nitrate, i mean can`t this value be a danger to the hole cycling proccess? MereB says not ower 40ppm, and only the day after a water change im back to same or higher . 35-70 as most. I did only a 20% change today.

 

[Kaysie]

A high nitrate isn't going to ruin your cycle. But you don't want to get it extremely high. Under 80ppm will be fine, especially if you're not cycling with the axolotl in the tank.