Tylototriton verrucosus variants

The animal in the first picture looks very much like the animals of Max Sparreboom in his verrucosus breeding article;
SPARREBOOM, M., 1999. Haltung und Nachzucht von Tylototriton verrucosus. Elaphe 7(2): 20-24. Johns' animals are also from the offspring of the animals described in this article I believe. In the article is mentioned that the animals would come from China...
These animals and mine look very much like the ones described from China in the T. shanjing species description (So also the neotype of T. verrucosus). So it could well be true. I bought mine in a store in Germany.

Although lighter coloured, the morphology of the animal in my first picture looks a lot like the two on this Thai page: http://siamensis.org/survey/s036.asp
Anyone able to translate that?
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It would be very interesting to know where these animals are from inside Thailand.
 
Interesting stuff, Wouter.

If you hadn't noticed already, I posted before a map of the T. verrucosus range in northern Thailand in this thread (though I can't vouch for its accuracy!).

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/22566.html

There's also a picture of a T. verrucosus from that book but it looks to me quite different from the animal in your first picture and from the one shown in the link you posted (which can be seen up close and personal at this direct link: http://siamensis.org/images/survey_images/s036/newt2.jpg ).
(don't bother typing in "1" or "3" before .jpg at the end of that address as I tried it already and got no new pictures
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As for what it says about this species, I can easily get you a translation from my colleagues in Bangkok if I remember, but I bet it's only a passing mention. My Thai doesn't extend to reading and writing, unfortunately.

By the way, what do you know about T. verrucosus in Laos? I heard something today about a lot of T. verrucosus coming out of there these days, but it's unconfirmed info.

(Message edited by TJ on October 27, 2005)
 
Yes, the animals from northeastern Thailand look really, really unique. It's definitely something new, subspecies or species from my view.

There have to be crocodile salamanders in Laos, They occur west, north and south of the northern part of the country. I've never heard of any though, so I'm curious!
 
Wouter, I think you mean northwestern Thailand, which is what Thais mean when they say "northern Thailand." Northeastern Thailand, known as Issan, has an altogether different climate and topography (lower elevation to begin with). (The northeasterners are different too, being of the same ethnicity and sharing the same language as people in lowland Laos
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I have a 1962 paper here titled "The Amphibian Fauna of Thailand" from the University of Kansas Science Bulletin (Vol. XLIII) in which the author Edward Taylor gives a nicely detailed description of T. verrucosus that were captured in northern Thailand's Chiang Mai Province.

(for a map, see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b1/Thailand_Chiang_Mai.png )

It mentions two localities where this species was known then and back in the 1920s (no point in mentioning them here though). The picture in the report is of a newt that was captured at an elevation of 2,000 meters, and it doesn't appear to look anything like the one in Wouter's first photo.

(Message edited by tj on October 28, 2005)
 
Wouter, I just heard back from my Thai colleague on the article that you posted the link for, and here's what she had to say:

"This is a long article about a trip to Chiang Mai's Doi Intanon National Park. The author's focus is not on the salamander at all, but on the Siamese butterfly catfish (photo at the bottom of the article). Anyway, it mentions only that the salamander Tylototriton verucossus is the only salamander found in Thailand. And it is found in that national park. However, the visitor (also author) could not spot any of those salamanders in the wild. It is kept in the exhibition room (aquarium) of the Research and Development Center of Freshwater Fishery in the national park and royal project."
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OK, since it's mentioned there and it's already a protected area, I might as well add here that the location of the T. verrucosus described in Taylor's article is also Doi Intanon.
 
Hm very interesting... In Thailand this species in mainly known from protected areas, and now these small ones appear to come from Doi Intanon! Lots of secrets still to uncover in this species!

With northeastern Thailand I meant the localities in the Loei Province. I just checked some maps of Thailand on google, you're right, I should have said northern Thailand. Not northwestern though!
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Any chance of scanning the "The Amphibian Fauna of Thailand" article? I've searched for it in the Natural History Museum in the Netherlands, but they don't seem to have it.

Still want to give up on Tylo's for the moment after all this discussion?
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Correction, Wouter, you're right!
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If you meant Loei Province, well then that's part of Issan (northern Issan actually), so it'd be regarded as northeast Thailand (Issan has a reputation for being hot, dry, barren, flat and impoverished, but lushly forested Loei with its nice mountains is an exception!). Is there evidence of T. verrucosus there?

If you give me a little time, I'll scan and send you the Taylor article, old though it may be.

Regarding my (temporary?) retirement from Tylototriton, you're a day too late as it's already a done deal. I (temporarily?) gave away my T. taliangensis, T. kweichowensis and T. verrucosus just yesterday, freeing me up for my increased family duties while still caring for oh-so-many Cynops, hynobiids and marbleds. I'm still interested in Tylototriton, just unable to give them the attention they deserve. Will make do with Echinotriton for now
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As for Echinotriton...

Tim. You live in the land where the species originates while us folks only dream of seeing it and only catch glimpses of it in the internet or read about them in articles, journals or lovely photos sent in by a certain "T. Johnson" in Japan (along with other keepers whom posses this species). How I envy you!

Wouter, is there any other difference between the T verrucosus clans in Thailand alone? Other than colouration/ cranial structure?
 
I think there must be Terry... But most literature about that is in Thai. The crocodile salamanders are really badly researched in Thailand, so there is little known. Same story as with Myanmar really.
 
Wouter, more literature in Thai? If you find it, toss it my way and we'll again see what we can make of it!
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Terry, there are Japanese who'd be equally envious of you for living in the land where fire salamanders and marbled newts, which are among the most beautiful of all tailed amphibians, originate! They may not be found in your immediate vicinity, but neither are the ones I mostly keep and photograph found in mine. Tokyo, where I live, is about 1,500 kilometers away from Okinawa. That'd take you from Amsterdam to Rome and beyond! What say you go get us some pics of those animals in their natural habitat before winter sets in?
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Wouter,
You are correct that the species is highly understudied. However I am sure there are some people in zoological institutes who could be contacted for articles or references?

Tim, you are right. What is valued here in the west is just as valued in the east. As for photography? the best I can do is round the Netherlands as for the moment I do not have the financial means to travel round surrounding europe even though I would love to. The best I can do is offer a view of the newts in the wild within my immediate surroundings. A very good suggestion though. That is probably what I will do. Thanks!
 
Tim I've only got references from another report describing the animals from Loei Province;
Beaver, O. (1982) "Occurence of a salamander on Doi Suthep". Jour Sci. Soc. Thailand, 36(6), pp. 398-400. (In Thai).
Suvatti, C. (1965) "A survey on salamander at Chiang Mai". Memoir document no. SR 2006/445, 13 aug. 1965. Faculty of Fisheries, Kasetsart University, Bangkok, 2 pp. (In Thai).

It seems impossible to get these, certainly the last one. So if your in the neighbourhood
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Terry, I guess there are always people with the right information, but they are hard to find. Look for articles on the internet, references etc, visit libraries... The literature is out there!
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Have you guys searched the online literature database at www.herplit.com?

Breck also sells the articles there or can get and sell copies of the articles.

Ed
 
Hi,
Haven't had time to read everything, I would just like to say that picture 2 and 3 looks quite similar apart from the color. I have seen quite bright animals from dark parents and the other way around so I'm not sure the color is the main thing. I would say that the morphological differences between 1 and 2,3 are quite big though, on the other hand 1 is not an adult.
 
Hi Jesper,
The animal on picture 1 on definitely an adult! This female began depositing eggs at a total length of 13 cm, which really surprised me. They seem to deposit eggs all year round.
 
Oh, sorry I thought I read that it was an adolescent. That just emphasizes the difference between 1 and 2,3 even more to me. The head shape of 1 is the head shape I've come to expect from the verrucosus I have seen, very triangular, the head shape of 2,3 is very like that of shanjing.
I just think that colour is not that relevant when it comes to the forms; "bright" and "dark" just feels wrong to use really.
I have got the feeling that the tail of the "dark" form(...) at least changes when adapting to water. Heh, by the way take a look at John's all yellow "dark" form if you haven't already.
 
I think that the broad head shape may be related to sex - female Pleurodeles also have a very broad head - much broader than the males - I think that this may facilitate more rapid growth because the females need to grow larger faster to produce their eggs - a large gape enables them to eat larger prey items.
 
Hi Andrew, your might be right about that, the head of my female is more triangular. The head of the male is still very triangular though. The mouth is very small compared to the variants on the other photos, so I don't think that the shape of the head has something to do with picking up food.
 
I can't remember seeing a so-called bright form with a really broad head though(as seen above). Many of the so-called dark forms seem to have this trait.

Among the sibling tv I have kept I have seen a wide range of colours and a variability of shyness. Strangely enough the brighter ones always seem less prone to eating, more shy and less hydrophilic. I believe I have only kept/keep the so-called dark form(from three different sources).
 
Perhaps the broad head is also related to the aquatic lifestyle (Pleurodeles are also very aquatic of course). Aquatic salamanders feed very differently to terrestrial ones I think; they are more like fish and catch their prey with an implosive expansion of the mouth, sucking in water and prey item together. Fish also often appear to have relatively small mouths, but the cavity behind the mouth opening is often enormous allowing them to pull in very large amounts of water to catch their prey; perhaps that is what is happening here with the first variant in the photo.
I think that the head length may be related to body length and the head width to body girth, so that the dwarf-like variant in the first photo with a wide body girth but short body length ends up appearing to have a disproportionately wide head. It also seems to me that the first photo looks a bit like a beached whale, and it may be that this body shape is not adapted to terrestrial life at all; it may be that it is only well adapted to life under water where the body is supported by the surrounding water.
 
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