Tylototriton verrucosus variants

wouter

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Here are some pictures of three different forms of Tylototriton verrucosus, at least that's what they are called now... Did I hear somebody say species complex?

Small dark form (I believe the same as your animals John?)
45903.jpg


Large light form (much more terrestrial than to other forms, at least in my experience):
45904.jpg


Large dark form (looks mutch like the previous form, but I've never seen the two forms in the same import):
45905.jpg
 
Hello Wouter!
Are you keeping this animal. If so are you keeping it in a terrestrial setup?
 
Ester, to me Jarno's animals resemble the animal on the last picture, but they look a bit different indeed... It's very difficult to tell really.

Hi Terry, i'm keeping the animals on the last two pictures terrestrial at the moment, but they will enter the water before long. I keep the form on the upper picture in water all year round.

Any more comments on the different morphological forms anyone?

(Message edited by wouter on October 23, 2005)
 
As far as I can tell you Wouter,

The large light form is the most common found in some petshops in Malaysia. Heck I've even seen them being sold in side street pet shops in the morning market. Not really the most professional way of selling T. v.

When I lived in Malaysia I kept mine generally terrestrial with only moss and some bark and leaf litter for hiding. A small water dish provided the needed moisture if it was feeling too dry. Temperatures I used to keep him was at 25 degrees celcius throughout and sometimes 18 degrees ( when i increase the airco setting). Please note. Temperatures in Malaysia are WARM! It is still living with my family back in Malaysia.
Greetings,
Terry
 
Terry, that's really interesting... I've seen this form on the internet for sale in Japan and Singapore many times too. They are not so common seen in Europe though, to my knowledge.

The way you kept them seems to me the best for this form, they have to choose for themself if they want to enter the water or not. So they resemble T. shanjing in many ways.
 
Hello again Wouter!

The reason why these newts are popular amongst two types of customers in Malaysia:

A) They are very bright coloured and "readily" available. The brighter the creature the more attractive. There are serious hobbyists which keep them and study them because of the different morphological differences. It is also something of great interest since Malaysia has no native Newt or Salamander species.
B) People who keep them for Feng Shui reasons. Do you know what Feng Shui is? Some people keep different kind of pets also for the purpose of Feng Shui or Asian Geomancy, that is the belief that the auspicious energies of the environment could be manipulated and corrected by possesing charms or designing things in a special way. One other way is also keeping of "Good luck animals" This ranges from Frogs( real or statues) to Fish ( mostly Arowanas, Cichlids or even Arapaima gigas!) to Newts. Newts by the way are revered as water deities in some parts of Asia, including Japan.

I kept them because this animal was the only available newt at the time which was something other than the Cynops and Pachytritons also found in pet stores.

If it is sold by a chinaman in Malaysia. be sure it is sold as a "good luck newt" or "rare exotic" ( even to south east asia). Basically a get rich scheme. People want them. He will sell them.

T. shanjing and T verrucosus are the most common Tylototritons being sold at the moment in South East Asia and by now I am sure that some more may have ended up in pet stores. Do not expect most ( i did not say all) people to attempt to breed them readily though. Its basically a single specimen pet because it looks good. Chances that Tylototritons are being bred in Malaysia for instance would be:
a) a student whom is studying the species
b) a business man who wants to make ...money

Have a nice weekend Wouter.
Warm greetings,
Terry

p.s. I'm sorry wouter if I have gone totally off topic with this posting. I just wanted to share with you the situations in Malaysia. Also, this is purely my views and not all Malaysians nor do I speak for them. Just myself!

(Message edited by terryschild on October 23, 2005)
 
Terry, your info is really interesting, so no worries about going off-topic! I know about feng shui, but I never knew that caudates where used for this...

I've never expected that any species of newt or salamander is bred regularly in south east Asia, and know about the trade inside those countries. I've seen many uses for the species, but never anything that helps the species survive... It's interesting to see that this also happens in countries where T. verrucosus and T. shanjing aren't endemics, such as Malaysia and Vietnam.

More comments on the forms anyone?
 
Are there any environmental differences which would predicate differences in their appearances? I understand natural variation within populations, but are these from the same population or others?
j
 
Tim, I guess this is typical for that form. They're much more adapted to the water than other forms. It's interesting too see the pictures of your and Franks animals, because they look different from my dark animal in the last pic... less prominent warts, flat head, but still that could vary within a population.
By the way, these animals are just the same as some of Jarno's animals, so your probably right Ester...

Justin, I think I can safely say that these animals are certainly not from one population. Environment could always have an impact on the animals, I think the animals from the first pic are more adapted to an aquatic life.

So a lot of guessing really... But I think it is about time to recognise T. verrucosus as a species complex.
 
maybe a stupid question, but what's the defining difference between verrucosus and shanjing? The light verrucosus looks quite a bit like a shanjing and sometimes people talk about "shanjing like" verrucosus.
 
Hi Wouter,

That's interesting, that they're much more adapted to the water than other forms. I was thinking along those lines when I first saw the photo, given the paddle-like shape of the tail
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This is true also with other salamander species. Take for example the various Japanese species like Salamandrella keyserlingii, which is reported to undergo remarkable modification of tail shape. With Hynobiids like H. retardatus and H. kimurae, and with Onychodactylus japonicus too, males undergo morphological changes in the breeding season, including this fin-like modification of the tail, that are regarded by scientists as adaptations for aquatic life.

Same goes for Cynops pyrrhogaster even. See:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/11856.html

Are those T. verrucosus like that year-round?
 
The paddle shape tail. It does depict a somewhat semi-aquatic lifestyle does it not? but how reliable is the shape of the tale within the Tylototriton family?

Like you mentioned adaptations to an aquatic lifestyle is well known amongst most newt species. Take Triturus which shows the most obvious aquatic metamorphosis. Am i correct to state that Cynops ensicauda also develops a more aquatic tail during its breeding season?
Regards,
Terry
 
The difference between T. verrucosus and T. shanjing is mainly the colour and the fact that they don't interbreed, at least according to the species description. But you're right Ester, the light form looks quite a bit like shanjing... but they are bigger, have a higher tail, a bit different head shape and a really unique basic colour.

Tim, I've heard of these tailshape-changes in breeding season too, it's indeed really interesting. I dind't know it happens to C. pyrrhogaster too though. I don't know if the tailshape of these T. verrucosus changes when given a terrestrial period, because I keep them in the water all year. It's a nice idea for a experiment, I'll try to give them a period on land soon!
 
The form in the top picture looks to be the same as those I have:
45998.jpg

They have been breeding constantly and after 9 batches of larvae I really didn't want anymore eggs laid this year so removed them from the water approximately 2 months ago. Since being terrestrial the females tails are no longer as rounded and paddle like as they were when fully aquatic, the males tails have never been as rounded as the females and do not appear to have changed since leaving the water.
 
On second thought, I should be amend what I suggested about C. pyrrhogaster because I don't know whether this is a seasonal morphological change or not, just that this was found to be the case with newts at different elevations in one area of Japan.

Terry, as for C. ensicauda, I haven't noticed any such change, though all that means...is that I haven't noticed any (not that it ain't so)
smile6.gif


Wouter, I found it interesting that T. shanjing is not even mentioned as a separate species in the 1988 publication Studies on Chinese Salamanders (Ermi Zhao, Yaoming Jiang, Qixiong Hu, Yuhua Yang). When was it first described at one? I wonder whether that came later than 1988, or whether these Chinese scientists don't (or didn't then) recognize it as genetically distinct from T. verrucosus to that degree...

Nice animals, Andrew!

(Message edited by TJ on October 25, 2005)
 
Tim, that was in 1995... Almost all studies of T. verrucosus in China before that year actually concern T. shanjing because the distribution of T. verrucosus is extremely limited in that country. I believe that the verrucosus examined and mentioned in Zhao et al 1988 are all T. shanjing... I even have my doubts if the original T. verrucosus from 1871 was a real one, not a shanjing
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Andrew your animals look quite the same, and I my experience these do indeed keep laying eggs on and on.

This is getting a very interesting topic!
 
Tim,
You want a copy of Nussbaum, Ronald A., Edmund D. Brodie, Jr. and Yang Datong. 1995. A taxonomic review of Tylototrition verrucosus Anderson (Amphibia: Caudata: Salamandridae). Herpetologica. 51 (3):257-268.

(and probably Yang, Yuhua. 1992. Karyotypic studies of nine species of Chinese salamanders. Asiatic Herpetological Research. 4 146-157)

Ed
 
Interesting stuff, Wouter. Thanks for enlightening us. And thanks for posing that question, Ester!

Ed, I've got a copy of Karyotypic studies of nine species of Chinese salamanders somewhere. I'll look up what it says if I can track it down. Anybody who has a e-mail-able copy of the other one, please don't hesitate to send it to me
wink.gif

I was told today by a Japanese friend who is very knowledgeable about Tylototriton that the type shown in Wouter's first pic is the type that used to be mainly imported into Japan years and years ago -- from China. Same small size and same-shaped tail. But these days, it is mainly the different types of T. verrucosus from northern parts of Southeast Asia that are being imported. Indeed, I don't recall seeing the aquatic-looking type before. I wonder what part of China they hail from. Any clue to the origin of yours?

Andrew, interesting observations and congrats on the impressive breeding success. believe me, I know what it's like to be overburdened with eggs! I'd volunteer to ease your burden if I didn't live on the other side of the world and if I had more time on my hands
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(Message edited by tj on October 27, 2005)
 
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