Triturus in the trade

Just let me point out that another potential way of getting Triturus across the Atlantic might be the sending of eggs via airmail. Takes quite some patience till the animals reach sexual maturity and main difficulty would probably be to find a European breeder. You are also restricted to breeding season and shortly thereafter. However, it might also work on a trading basis.
On the other hand you get to know the animals quite well and they can adapt to your setup. The risk of importing disease can also be minimized by applying some medication to the eggs (I use a solution of malachite green).

Take a look at this article:
http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/Ship_newts.html

I do not condemn the buying of wildcaught animals in general, hey I buy WCs myself. Just take a look at some alternatives and the trading of eggs might be one in some cases.

Ralf
 
I should also add that even if one did attempt to send eggs to the USA, their recent implementation of high power X-ray machines would probably kill the eggs.
 
Of course I don't want anybody to start or get involved in illegal activities. I was referring to legally captive bred eggs only in my previous post. However, I have to admit that I am no expert on further legal requirements which might be involved.
Maybe somebody else can provide some more info (on laws as well as X-rays).

Ralf
 
Just one quick point- 'Ukrainian' exports are not necessarily animals collected in the Ukraine- the exporters there collect animals from various locations.
 
David,
I'd be very surprised if you found wc t marmoratus in american pet shops.Spain isn't Ukraine...
I don't blame you for buing them,it's the pet shops that shouldn't be allowed to get wc protected species and the ukranians shouldn't be able to sell them.
 
Well, those importations come from Ukrainian. They are completely legal, with all the paperwork. In Ukrainian they are several exporters that offer quite a massive list of amphibians and reptilians at ridicules prices. The caudates that are offer from April to September are t.vulgaris, t.montandoni, t.cristatus, t.alpestris, t.karelinii, t.vittatus, p.walt and salamandra salamandra. Those animals are WC and imported from orders starting from 50/100 ‘units’. You can import any specie to any European country as long as the specie is not protected in that country or even region. So, for instance all those species could be imported to Spain excepting t.alpestris alpestris (the protection of specie includes all subspecies even if they are not local), salamandra salamandra and p.waltl. On the other hand, there is no REAL competence for that market since just very few shops in Europe offer CB European newts. And to get CB species require time, effort, money and contacts. Moreover, those imported species are bought with all the paperwork from the shop which permits you to acquire protected species from within Europe. As a European member you are suppose to have free commerce and free travel, residence and so on. So, laws are in contradiction if somebody buy those newts from within Europe and then move back to their country where those species are protected. For example, if you have a dog and you change your residence you don’t expect anybody to take away your dog cause that dog specie is protected in that new location.
Which means, those importations are unfortunately the easiest way to get legal papers for protected species. As I was last year in England I bought some CB t.alpestris cyreni from Crystal Pallace shop and when I came back to Barcelona I took my ‘pets’ back home. So, I have protected specie with legal papers from London. A bit of contradiction, isn’t it? And I do wonder where those adult t.marmoratus that are offer in several shop from Europe (specially Germany) and EEUU do come from? And what kind of permits, paperwork do they have for their importation and selling? Since, in Spain are strictly protected.
It is necessarily to harmonize the laws within the EU and to provide a legal CB stock for all members. But, that day haven’t come.
 
Yago,
one thing I'm sure about:I'd never be able to sell t.marmoratus in a shop here in Italy.
We only have cb p.waltl but I think they're sold as p.poireti
In Italy no matter what legal papers you have to state that your newts are cb,you just CAN'T keep them.Infact in pet shops we only find asian and american amphibians except for p.waltl.
 
Ralf,
I have to agree with you about sending eggs. It is a resonable choice that (although like just about everything concerning shipping herps these days...) is of questionable legality.
I have to admit that is how I aquired my T.v. ophryiticus and I just noticed a few small hatchlings today, so I know that some have survived the trip.
-Travis
 
I appreciate your offer Travis. I've got oprhyiticus babies my self from some of the wild caughts. Hopefully now with having captive born in a few years I'll have captive breed and if enough people start breeding them over here the U.S. market for wild caughts will simply dry up and the point will be mute.
 
Hi Francesco, you're right about the marms not being in pet shops. I got them from Glades herps and of course they expected another shipment in but haven't come through yet. I've got an import license myself which I still haven't used yet. I might have to go to Gersfeld this fall and try to find some breedable females for my marm males.
 
See you in Gersfeld then
happy.gif
 
In Germany you have to register all protected species you keep legally, as well as report any "casualties" and offspring. Offspring of caudates is usually required to be reported after metamorphosis.
Exchange between enthusiasts is possible without any problem, if you don't sell the animals commercially. You just have to report who received the animals and the new owner has to register them where she/he lives.
However, in some cases it is also possible to get a special permit to sell your animals to a dealer.
Yes, there have been quite a few adult T. marm. showing up in trade over here, also making me wonder where these animals had come from. There are quite a few people who breed this species regularly, but usually give away juveniles.
See you all in Gersfeld, hopefully.

Ralf
 
I must say that francesco is not totally right: in Italy (I recently went to speack with the proper autorities) there are several laws per each region (Marche,Lazio,Umbria ecc...)...
in particular in Rome (I'm from Rome too) we can legally keep Triturus alpestris (!!!) and every amphibians that is not from this region (we can keep marmoratus, helveticus, boscai ecc...!!!);
did you know it???I'm very happy for this!

will you really go to Gersfeld, Francesco?
I'd be very happy to go with you...could I?
bye
leo
 
You may be able to keep them but you can't sell them.
The problem is there is a lot of confusion within the autorities (in this case the "forestale") and I wouldn't risk questioning any of them. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even know what a newt is
lol.gif

Still you can't keep any native species .I've already heard that you should be able to keep alpestris but I'm a bit sceptical about it...
 
you are right, most part of the "forestale" doesn't even know what a newt is!
uhoh.gif

but I assure you that some persons are rather prepared...
I talked with them, they gave me the list of illegal species in Lazio (there is not alpestris)...they told me we can keep this species and, even if also others are protected, you can even keep Triturus spp....the only two species which are "very illegal" to keep in our region are S.salamandra and S.terdigitata!
hope this will interest you
bye
leo
 
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