Triturus in the trade

[greg]

Somebody at kingsnake.com is selling 3 species of Triturus right now including 1 that I've never seen before. Are these coming in as metamorphs or are they wild-caught adults? anybody have any information on this latest wave of Triturus to hit the U.S. trade?

 

[aaron]

Carpathian newts are Triturus montandoni
Alpine: Triturus alpestris
Crested: Triturus cristatus

Although I don't really have any info on the actual importation, I'd have to say that they would be WC adults, as there is no way they could get those species in those numbers and prices from US breeders. Also, adults are much easier to capture than juveniles.

~Aaron

 

[david]

I've corresponded with them. They're wild caughts from the Ukraine

 

[john]

... which seems to be the origin of most wild caught Triturus in the trade these days

. I really object to that now-a-days.

 

[greg]

When did Ukraine open to the trade? Seems like it must have been relatively recent.

 

[john]

Well as far as I know, most (all?) of those species are supposed to be protected in the Ukraine, but what can we do about it? They've been coming out of there (or through there) for years.

 

[david]

The way the economy is there, people sell people. (I think people are supposed to be a protected species too.)

 

[eric]

One pet shop in my area (Montreal-Canada) just received 200 Crested Newts from a russian source (possibly ukraine). They are very cheap, 10 CND$ each!!!!
They are all WC adults and subadults
They are a little slim because they received no food during transit and in the store (minimum two weeks?). Anyway, I don't think they could eat with all the stress.
One good point, the staff keep them in a cold place. Hope they will find good home quickly...
Eric

 

[ralf]

Hey, without any market (or demand) there wouldn't be any collection in the wild and no export/import of these animals. There are still a lot of "enthusiasts" that rather rely on "cheap" adult imports than on captive bred juveniles. I suspect, that most of these animals will be "consumed".
Being a Hobbyist-breeder myself, I can say that a lot of people interested in newts do not want a c/b juvenile because of the hassle of raising it to adulthood. They want the "real thing", a cute little dragon they can chuck in their goldfish glass or garden pond (in the worst case).
One can still obtain all Triturus species as legal c/b animals from breeders if one is patient enough and willing to put some effort into the raising of the juveniles.
So breed, breed, breed, inform people about the animals and convince them to rely on your c/b animals rather than on mass imports.

Ralf

 

[russ]

Too bad those "consumers" don't realize they're better off with a CB juvenile. You can't age a WC adult, so you may be purchasing an animal in it's last year of life. Though I won't totally condemn the sale of WC, all CB have descended from them at some point. You just have to use a little common sense when collecting.

 

[francesco]

I think cb animals are nearly always better than wc.A cb will get used to a terrarium/aquarium better than a wc specimen because he's never seen a pond,a wood etc.The only thing of cb animals is that some times they've been inbred too much and this makes them weaker.And wc animals also can carry deeases and parasytes.

 

[david]

A picture of the "Carpathian" newt in the photo gallery

 

[travis]

That is really too bad that some many Triturus are collected for wholesale markets overseas. I had always wondered why the only WC Salamandra offered were from the Ukraine, but now I know.I for one will not be buying any of these WC animals.

 

[david]

If (and that's a big if) you could even find captive bred animals of these species, you for one probably couldn't afford to buy them. I for one bought 25 carpathians, 25 alpines and 15 cristasus so hopefully after taking some of the natural losses incurred in dealing with wild caughts, I can get 4 breedable trios of each species and captive breed animals might eventually be available in the United States. Admittedly alot of the animals sold off by the wholesalers will end up as turtle food or in tropical fish tanks, being cared for by people who have no idea of what they're doing, but the same is true whether they're sold in pet store or purchased from a breeder. Some people just see a pretty, shining bauble and have to have it. I just don't see why people have a problem with buying wild caught animals. The problem should be what happens to the animals after they're sold. If they're not properly cared for and bred than it's a waste. Maybe I'm stupid but aren't all captive bred animals descendents of wild caughts? Would axolotls even exist as a species anymore (last I heard there wasn't too many left in Mexico since their natural lakes were destroyed and polluted) if someone hadn't bred wildcaughts? If you can show me a place in the U.S. that can provide me with captive bred animals, please let me know. In the mean time, If I see an ad for about 8 wild caught female marms to match up with my 4 males, I'm buying them.

 

[francesco]

Well,in Europe quite a few people breed these 3 species.


Collecting amphibians for the pet trade is one of the reasons of their extinction in some places.
I can understand if you collect 8-10 specimens for yourself but I don't agree with who collects hundreds and then sells them.

 

[francesco]

What do you mean with marms,Triturus marmoratus?

 

[david]

Yes I do mean marmortus. I had a pair I wanted to breed last season and the circuit breaker for my air conditioner kicked off and I lost them. I took 3 years of looking to find them. Since then I've only found 4 males. Europeans do breed these species. If you live in Europe and are interested in Triturus species you have a big advantage over us poor colonials. We have some nice species here in the United States too, and some serious people such as Nate and I believe Aaron are trying to start up breeding programs for our native species, but there's allways been something about Triturus to me, dating back to when I was in the Army and stationed in Germany.

 

[travis]

David,
I can understand you buying these Triturus, it is not totally unreasonable but I for one just don't feel like supporting it. I am glad as long as they are here for sale in the US that a person like yourself is getting them and breeding them then distributing them to other breeders,etc.
I can get you some CB Triturus if you are looking for them. Right now I am hatching T. vittatus oprhyiticus and T. vittatus vittatus. I am going to be getting other species of Triturus this fall.
If I could not get these CB animals then I, like you would probably also feel the need to buy WC.
-Travis

 

[greg]

It is an unfortunate fact of the times that in many cases for you or I to collect 8-10 individuals for our own use would be illegal. But we could collect them for use as live bait OR we could get a commercial permit and collect them by the hundreds to sell. I recently had a certain state in the North East deny my requested collecting permit and grant me a much more scaled down one because of conservation worries... but then I see people who live in that state catching and selling live amphibians on kingsnake by the hundred. They are legal to do that without permit. But I with a permit cannot catch even 1% of the numbers they have. Surely there is a big differnce between filling up one's bucket with animals, based upon dollar signs, and what most private breeders would do.

On the flip side. 10 of us each take 10 salamanders and it's equal to the one guy taking 100, at least from the population's point of view. A notable difference is that when the prices go up, we won't care. We'd be breeding ours and next season wouldn't be back to that pond again. The wholesaler, however, might.

All that said, I too will buy things as wild caught when I find them. I'd rather trade though. I'd mostly prefer to go get them myself so I know locality data and can more accurately have a sense of habitat requirements, etc. BUT.... I've never been where Triturus lives. Which leaves me looking for CB animals in the U.S. or buying Wild Caught beasties.

greg

 

[eric]

I agree with you David
WC animals is not my best choice but in fact my ONLY choice. I'm living in eastern Canada and as far as I know there is nobody who breed Triturus here. In fact I think I'm the only guy in Quebec crazy enough to raise Triturus!
It's far easier in a big country like USA to find serious breeders with lot of species than here. So if I want a breeding colony, I have no choice to buy WC animals (and believe me they are very hard to find) and learn by myself. And I have no choice to buy a little more specimen than I really need simply because if I loose, for instance, my 2 mature males of a particuliar species, I'm not sure I can have another ones in the future! What can I do with 4 females and no male?
So please everybody, don't be to rude with poor guys like David and I who do our best to join the newt-breeder community with the best intentions.
I know, 99% of the newts sold by regular pet shops will probably die before the end of the year, but I'm sure you can make distinction between people buying WC newts just for fun and people like us who really want to do something to protect them.
Believe me, I would prefer to raise a fragile CB juvenile instead of buying a fully-developped WC adult.
David, I tried to buy the 3 Triturus species offered (in Canada to!) by NW Reptile but they were sold out, Now I have found why (25 Montandoni, 25 Alpine.....)He,he,he,he.....
Eric.