Triturus Dobrogicus Pics

[Greatwtehunter]

For what it is worth, here is a picture of my adult female T. d. macrosomus. That's average size (average in the US) aquarium gravel.

 

[eljorgo]

No way.... Like Justin Said they are tremendously smaller Rodrigo... really much smaller.
Only 50% of the body length. So no extra vertebrae. And the size really doesn´t depend on the vertebra number, but as the factor size.
Cheers

 

[Azhael]

What you say makes no sense....how can they be 50% of the size? Then T.d.dobrogicus would have to be 30 long....
Literature states that macrosoma is larger and bulkier.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

Literature states that macrosoma

I'm a little confused, I thought it was macrosomus? I googled macrosoma but didn't come up with nearly half the amount of info as for macrosomus. Is this just a typo?

 

[Azhael]

Oh sorry.
Macrosomus and macrosoma are the same except one is femenine and the other masculine. There is this current among taxonomers which consists on making binomials homogenous in gender. That´s why, for example, we now can see I.a.apuana around, or Podarcis siculus...(apparently this current is particularly strong in Italy xD).

I got used to using macrosoma when i started learning about caudates, but many people now use macrosomus so that it´s masculine, just like Triturus.

 

[Joost]

Interesting. Are macrosomus and dobrogicus something like marmoratus and pygmaeus?

 

[eljorgo]

My T. d. macrosomus are about half the size of the nominate form.

If i do know correctly, in maths the word half means 1/2 or 0,5 that multiplied by 100 gives 50%.
Rodrigo If you say that what i say make no sense or that i don´t know you should read this.
And its not my idea. As many were say and show Macrosoma is truly smaller.

 

[Azhael]

What i meant is that if macrosomus is 50% of the size of dobrogicus, then since i know for a fact that macrosomus can reach 14-15cm(and larger), dobrogicus would have to be around 30, which is obviously not true.
All the literature i´ve been able to find describes macrosomus as larger both in length and general girth, and they do have an extra vertebra. In fact macrosomus means big body which is a name that i doubt would be given to an smaller subespecies.

Joost, macrosomus and dobrogicus are both subspecies of T.dobrogicus, while T.marmoratus and T.pygmaeus are species in their own right. At least that´s the current theory...the way they are upgrading subspecies in the Triturus genus this days...who knows.

 

[eljorgo]

Hey Rodrigo. Yes i understood your point. But take a look at least at Justin´s Macrosomus... They aren't more than 10cm at least at a far sigh i thing i could say this...
Not sure trough but seems pretty well. I think the name is given since its haves a much full body and heavy constitution. Al well as a much bigger crest but in fact a smaller animal..
Chip.

 

[Azhael]

Justin´s dobrogicus may not be full size.
I keep T.d.d. and my female is 13cm...she started reproducing when she was around 11cm long...definitely not the full adult size.

http://biologie-oradea.xhost.ro/BihBiol/cont/v3n1/bb.031201.Gherghel.pdf
That paper shows that although the new record for the species belongs to dobrogicus, macrosoma used to hold the record and is considered larger.

Incidentally, i can´t remember where (i´ve been looking but can´t find it) but i read somewhere that is dobrogicus the one that reaches higher crests. Anyway it depends greatly on the individual and its health state, so i doubt it can be used as a diferenciating characteristic.

 

[caudatadude28]

Azhael you female is TINY compared to mine. How old is she? She started reproducing very small too. Mine started reproducing when she was around 13-15cm long. In cm, my females are about 20 cm now and my male is 16.25 cm!

 

[Azhael]

Are you sure she is 20cm long?
The paper in my other post states that the record is 17.5. Of course that´s for a wild animal, not a captive one.
If you could messure her or take a picture of her above coordinate paper or something like that it would be great.

 

[Yahilles]

Also to me that paper looks somewhat unreal, cause there i can read that carnifex is the biggest from crested newts (no talking about dobrogicus record lenght), my friend, expert field herper and owner of garden pond where cristatus breed in high numbers, told me that 20 cm cristatus are not so hard to find in nature, and- in southeast mountains in Poland we have some isolated populations of T. dobrogicus which he believed were even bigger than other crested newts he found.

But story about those T. dobrogicus macrosomus being so small is intriguing me... pygmy crested newts?

 

[Greatwtehunter]

Ok, to clear up some confusion in my statement. I said the were ABOUT half the size, not exactly. I'll go home today and measure them so we know exactly how long they are.

I have no clue how old mine are but I've had these guys for at least 7 or 8 months and they haven't grown a bit since I have gotten them.

 

[Joost]

here some new pics I made last night, one day after water-changing. The male's crest was growing even bigger. Unfortunataly the pictures are a bit cloudy, because of the bad light

 

[caudatadude28]

Here are some more pics:


She is about 19 cm in this picture but isnt perfectly straight. I have measured her without a camera before and got 20. She didnt want to cooperate.

Two adult females and the juvenile male. This pic shows the very different colors of each individual. The other male is a shade of brown that is different too.

Lazy girl. She needed a rest. Either fat or getting gravid. The water really takes off a lot of weight!

 

[eljorgo]

Well last Friday I got a surprise... In my dobro tank there were 10eggs
But isn´t it too soon? Even that way 2 of those have fungi and the other are still round so I guess they are infertile but today I found just one eggs in the morning. I just saw him again and he was "sliced" in 4 different half's... I might consider this one fertile I guess... Even that way its only one egg :dizzy:
cheers

 

[Azhael]

That´s indeed a very large female Caudatadude, although judging by the picture i´d say she is more on the lines of 18cm (still a big lady xD). She must be old to have been able to achieve such a size.
In the paper that i posted earlier, they mentioned that hybrids of the cristatus complex are particularly big, exciding the maximum sizes for any of the parental species. I wonder if the large size and the very particular coloration of your animal might be a sign of genetic intromission, which apparetly is very common in dobrogicus (the whole complex really...).
My females don´t look anything like yours except for the elongated bodies. The coloration and spotted pattern are radically different, and mine are no where near as fat, despite being vicious eaters. Even when gravid, my female stayed relatively slender.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

I have to agree with Azheal on yours having a very different pattern in regards to the spotting and lightness. I've never seen one that light or evenly spotted. The spotting really reminds me of a long carnifex in a way. She is still cool none the less!

Anyways, here is a picture of one of my females for comparison.

 

[caudatadude28]

Yea, my one female is very brown/tan with even spotting. All three adults came from the same mom and dad. The adult male is more like the brown and regularly spotted female than the greyish female. Do you guys think the greyish female looks more normal. I dont know of thier genetics but they all have the same genetics since they have the same mom and dad and the son is from one of the females and the male.