T.d.dobrogicus female, rapidly deteriorating.

[Azhael]

Sad news...one of my T.d.dobrogicus, the original female, has started to loose weight very rapidly and show signs of other problems.

A bit of background story: She is about three years old, and has always been the most agressive eater of the group. Her first breeding was all duds due to the male not being ready to breed, and the second one gave as a result the addition of two of her offspring to the group. This year, however, she didn´t breed at all (it was her daughter who did).

Since christmas i´ve been observing her and she had been loosing some weight despite being generously fed. Her main diet are earthworms with the ocassional ration of bloodworms or pellets (exceptionally there are other food items in her diet too). Since a couple of weeks ago, the deterioration has been fast and dramatic. She is now very skinny (although still active and feeding agressively) and she seems to be having some difficulty straightening her back (it´s been quite arched for the last few weeks).
She has also started to loose her fingers. This is incredibly odd to me since there doesn´t seem to be an infection or a wound of any kind. The fingers are simply retreating and disappearing slowly. Her daughter has also been suffering a reduction in finger length recently which is worrying me to death (although she is in great physical shape otherwise).

I have no idea what the cause of the problem might be. The males appear to be perfectly ok.
At this point i´m pretty sure how this is going to end..i just wish i knew why.
I´ll try to upload pictures as soon as i can (if she is still alive). Sadly i´m away for familiar reasons.

 

[CherryBlossom]

sorry to hear this

 

[Ltdanicecream]

I'm sorry to hear of this Azhael. Have you removed either of them from their tankmates? If it gets much worse, I'd put her in a Tubberware with wet paper towels and put that in the fridge for a few days, with a few small, non-chopped earthworms just in case. But I'm no expert so get a few more opinions.

It sounds like MBD the way you say her back is arched, but you also state that the majority of her diet is earthworms which are rich in calcium... It is odd that you say they are both eating still. Give her a few waxworms maybe? Best of luck, I hope I've been a little help considering all the help you've given me and everyone on this forum.

 

[Azhael]

I did remove her and place her in a spare stablished tank (the L.v.vulgaris were there but have gone terrestrial now).
I´m simply lost as to what the cause of the problem might be.

I´ve seen retreating fingers before, in my C.pyrrhogaster, but it appeared to be completely non-pathological since it happened quite some time ago and they have bred since and look simply beautiful. As i said, it really doesn´t look like an infection (which is the usual cause of tissue loss), there´s no wound at all, no inflamation, no signs of pain or limited use of the extremities...nothing....all seems normal except for the fact that the fingers are growing shorter and shorter (some are mere stubs).

MBD came to mind when i started noticing the troubled spine, but with the diet she has had i find it difficult to believe she might have had a severe calcium deficiency. The male has the same age and has had the same diet and care and looks like a hundred bucks.

I know at least Jen has seen the shortening fingers thing before...i hope someone can shed some light about it, though, or tell me if it has been accompanied of health problems too.

As for my poor girl....i don´t have much hope at all...poor thing....Thankfully i have some of her grandchildren at the moment, and i might keep one to replace her...

 

[webzdebs]

aw i'm sorry to hear this

 

[deliriah]

I'm so sorry to hear that, I wish I could help, or knew something more about this.

 

[Azhael]

I just got home and she is still alive, active, HUNGRY and doesn´t seem to have deteriorated much in the time i´ve been away. There might be a chance, although i´d rather not get excited...

Thank you both for your kind words!

 

[evut]

Hi, sorry to hear your newt is unwell. Hope she gets better now!
I'm sure she's getting the best possible care from you.

 

[Mac Myers]

Good luck... hope it goes well (obviously). :happy:

 

[Ltdanicecream]

I don't know if this will help at all

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-...us-taricha/67550-noto-perstriatus-fungus.html

 

[misslyss]

She sounds like a fighter so hopefully with your great care and her will to survive she will overcome this! :happy:

Thinking back, the only other instance I've heard of toe loss was when there was a problem with substrate or something in the set up that they regularly use, but if the males are unharmed then thats unlikely to be the problem. Maybe its something genetic?

 

[shmifty5]

I fully agree with everyone else and I hope your animal makes a full recovery, especially after all you have done for me and my fellow members.:grin:

What's really odd about this is the way it sort of sounded like her body wasn't absorbing the nutrients from her food, maybe it could be a 'rare' genetic disorder, my uncle had one where his intestines weren't absorbing nutrients so his body stole it from his bones and muscles, he looked all crooked until they started giving him IV nutrients, he is better now, is there a chance that something like that could be happening to her? Does that sort of thing occur in caudates?

The toe thing is still weird though, unless her body was absorbing those first...

 

[Azhael]

I suposse that´s a possibility. A rare metabolic condition, cancer, a genetic mutation, a virus...who knows...i haven´t got a clue...:S

I´ll keep feeding her as usual and see what happens. Taking her to a vet is barely an option...i know the vets in this city and to put it simply...they know what dogs are, but caudates are another matter.

Mysslyss: they don´t have a substrate, but thanx for trying to make an informed guess. I wish someone could shed some light about the whole thing...

 

[Mac Myers]

I have a friend who's a Vet. He once told me he was frustrated as he felt veterinary medicine was on par with Human Medicine from the 1800s.

 

[misslyss]

A bacterium called "Bumblefoot" affects the digits and/or limbs, and is possibly caused by Pseudomonas.

Came across this information while looking for Mandarin Newts care sheets and thought I would share.

Hope this helps!

Marc Staniszewski's Mandarin Salamander FAQ

 

[RobM]

An interesting read, but I don't think it is bumblefoot. The fingers would swell before dropping off, which I think would be quiet obvious in t.d.dobrogicus as from what I have seen they have pretty long and skinny fingers.Potentially it could be a similar disease though, so perhaps it would be worth giving the newt the suggested treatment for bumblefoot.

 

[Azhael]

Thanx for bringing that to my attention, misslyss.
There has been no swelling whatsoever, nor any sign of ulceration. It´s not that condition but could be something similar.

Yesterday i noticed a small amount of what appeared to be fungus floating on the surface. I´ve seen this before in other tanks, and i think it might be mold, but who knows. It´s only out-of-place thing i can find. Anyway, i cleaned it well.

The female continues very thin but the reduction in the digits appears to not be advancing in neither of them.
A small set of discolored areas have appeared in the end of the tail. Normally i would panic, but i´ve seen it before and they were teeth marks from their feeding frenzies. Looks the same, so i´m not considering it a problem just yet.

 

[misslyss]

No problem, any updates?

 

[Azhael]

She is just getting worse and worse....
Last night she had fungus growing on her tail tip. She still eats eagerly and is active whenever she smells food, but gains no weight....
She is just bones and skin, it´s really upsetting to see her like this.
I´m stumped as to what´s happening....she eats big worms, but after she excretes them she is just as horribly thin as before...i trully have no idea how it´s possible for her to still react to food and eat like she does...

At this point i think i´m going to euthanize her...she is obviously unable to gain weight, no matter how much i try to fatten her up...she has developed fungus...Whatever is wrong with her, i think it´s pretty clear that is not going to get better. I have no hope whatsoever that she´ll recover, so at least i think the right thing to do is to make it end as humanely as possible and spare her the rest (could be weeks or months...) of what has been a long death....

 

[CherryBlossom]

im sorry I truely am.