Raising Neurergus kaiseri

[paul_b]

Hi John,

my juvenile Neurergus kaiseri are clearly more aquatic than most of the Cynops species I breed!

If they have the possibility to live in a good water part, they nearly never go on land.

Some successfull breeder don't force them to go on land with good success.
Look here:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=41968
and:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50492

I am wondering if it is possible, that in nature some populations also live in water all year - in the ground (carst)?

Paul

 

[John]

Paul, are you telling me you can maintain adults in aquatic conditions 365 days of the year and they breed for you? I don't think you are but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[paul_b]

John, I don't tell this - I only have juvenile and they all time can go on land!
But I ASK is if it is neccessary to FORCE them to go on land?
And if it is neccessary, what is the best time and what is with the breeders - see links, and what do we realy know about their living in nature?
See: http://www.salamanderland.at/Artenliste/N.kaiseri/N.kais.Habitat.Erweiterung.htm

Paul

 

[coendeurloo]

We have yet to build up a big enough database of experiences and knowledge about their ecology. Because of this, it is important to compare different ways of keeping them.

 

[paul_b]

Hi Coen, yes that can be a good way!

It confuses me:
Some breeder like ajc say that they need a terrestrial phase:

I'm still of the opinion that keeping this species permanently aquatic is so different to their natural environment that it is not good for them in the long run.

but other like Yago:

I keep adults all year round in water and I do the same with juveniles (they never go through a terrestrial stage). "

and Jochen Kopetsch wrote:
(http://www.ag-urodela.de/molchregister_neurergus_kaiseri/neurerguskaiseri.htm)
("Ich halte meine Tiere ganzjährig im Wasser. Anfangs hatte ich ihnen ein Landteil angeboten ......
Dieser trockene Bereich wurde allerdings nicht aufgesucht. Seit geraumer Zeit werden die Molche deshalb rein aquatil gehalten.")
In English:
I keep my animals in the water, all year round. In the first time I offered them a land part ..... This dry range was not visited however. For quite some time the newts are kept pure aquatil.

 

[ajc]

This is a valuable discussion.
I didn't actually say they "need" a terrestrial phase, I said that we don't have enough data to know what the long term effects of keeping them permanently aquatically are. By the time we get to the second or third CB generation, then we'll know!

 

[Mark]

I think that for many newt species there is a key time window at metamorphosis where the animal’s instincts tell it to crawl out of the water and adapt to terrestrial life. Given the choice this is what the newt will do - thousands of years of evolution tell it that its best chance of survival is to adapt (especially if the water body dries up!). The urge to become terrestrial varies from species to species (eg. Cynops has a very strong urge to the point where it will drown or starve in its effort to adapt. Triturus and Neurergus appear to be more casual in their approach to adaptation.) When not given the choice and kept aquatic this time window passes and the newt sees no reason to go through the behavioural and physiological adaptations required for terrestrial life. If its environment is favourable and it gets fed why would it? I believe Paul’s newts were not given the choice at metamorphosis. The reason they do not stay on land is because they missed their window to adapt. Maybe they will wait for the next cycle. I have fully aquatic N.strauchii which didn’t have land at metamorphosis. Now, just like Paul’s kaiseri there is no interest in land even though access is given.

I don’t know what the long term consequences are. Certainly in the case of N.strauchii both fully aquatic and terrestrial phase animals breed if given the correct temperature cycling. I don’t doubt that N.kaiseri is the same.

 

[frank_pasmans]

Hi all,

My CB parent animals are now 9 years old and doing fine, living fully aquatic. The only time they bred was after a terrestrial phase in summer. My major problem with this species is to get the males in breeding condition: my "old" 9 year old male and his offspring (in their 4th year) do not get into breeding condition whereas the females do and lay eggs. I am not sure whether giving them a terrestrial phase is necessary: I gave it to the parent animals for four years; only the first year with good result.

 

[robkeulers]

As Frank's CB animals are 9 years of age, since how long is this species in captivity?

I thought they just were in captivity for a few years..

 

[froggy]

I am afraid that i have nothing to add to this discussion with regards to experience or data, but I do have a question about the captive populations. How many bloodlines of this species are in captivity at the moment, and is there some sort of 'studbook' to ensure that the lines do not end up getting inbred and unviable? I would think that it would be worth occasionally mixing groups (of course with quarantine etc) to ensure that all captive3 stock are not the progeny of siblings or parents/offspring.

It is fantastic to see this species doing so well in captivity, particularly given the wild situation. Does anyone know if the areas Neurergus is found in are threatened by chytrid fungus at all? I would assume that given their relative aridness, this wouldn't be the case.

I also seem to rememebr someone posting habitat pics and some ecological observations of one of the Neurergus species on the forum a while ago. Could these be useful in modelling captive habitas?

Great work!

Chris

 

[paul_b]

As Frank's CB animals are 9 years of age, since how long is this species in captivity?...

@Rob, I think since 1995!

Paul

 

[michael]

My only questions are what age generally do they reach sexual maturity and how do you know it's time to switch them to water?

My c.b. ones that are 2 years old are almost as big as the adults that I had breed last year. I think it would be reasonable to expect them to breed when they are 2 to 3 years old. I took my adults out of the water when they were finished breeding last year. This year I'll be setting them up in permanent tanks with land and water area. One friend of mine has 1/3 of his tank stacked with limestone rocks. I'm not sure If I'm brave enough for that. I'm afraid something is going to die near the bottom of the pile and foul the tank.

 

[Mark]

As an example of the growth rate here's a shot of two animals who are the same age, are kept in identical containers in the same room and are fed the same diet. The only difference is the appetite. As you can see kaiseri grow much faster than C.asper.

Frank - have your offspring ever bred successfully? At what age did the females start laying eggs?

 

[platinum]

Michael,

I was interested in your friend's piled up limestone rock.

I'd considered starting a set up for them before they reach likely breeding age including limestone rocks. I'd thought about the dangers of bad water as I've made that mistake before, so I'm trying to work out a way of making a limestone wall which would be above water level. I know it might sound futile, but I'd read somewhere that N.kaiseri have been observed breeding in large numbers in parts of their home streams where the water passes through man-made, culvert walls inside villages. The writer suggested that the crevices of such walls created a more stable habitat for these newts, in his opinion. The idea is to make a place to house them all year.

At least my recreation of an 'Iranian village' won't involve slaughtering them for some local ceremony and treading on them on sight because they're bad luck, which I've heard happens over there.

 

[coendeurloo]

Seeing how many people keep this specie nowadays, wouldn't it be wise to bundle all the information and experience we have, and create a caresheet? I know I had my share of 'Google Translate' to read through some very interesting german articles...plus, a lot of people seem to have years of experience with N. kaiseri, yet have not published any article regarding their succes stories. I think it would be great to give future keepers of N. kaiseri a central place where they can get their information to succesfully keep this specie.

By the way Mark, what is the size of your N. kaiseri juveniles? It looks exactly the same as mine, maybe it is nice to compare sizes. Mine are around 8 cm, which is 3.14 inch.

 

[ajc]

Great picture Mark. I'm actually starting to worry a little about obesity in this species - I think a little calorie restriction will be important for long term health! They are greedy little pigs, and less shy than their WC parents - snouts always in the trough.

On another note; I can remember when John started this site (several incarnations ago). It warms the cockles of my heart that we are here now having this discussion about this species (and other threatened species).

 

[Mark]

I'm actually starting to worry a little about obesity in this species - I think a little calorie restriction will be important for long term health!

Hint taken .

Hi Coen, I'm not sure exactly how large they are. At a guess I'd say between 9-10cm, around the same size as yours.

I think there's certainly enough info on this and other forums to start the bones of a decent care sheet for this species. With availability of cb animals on the increase and with luck set to grow further it would be good to have one (save us asking Alan every five minutes). Maybe we could have a communal effort at writing one in the donor area?

 

[Jennewt]

My c.b. ones that are 2 years old are almost as big as the adults that I had breed last year. I think it would be reasonable to expect them to breed when they are 2 to 3 years old. I took my adults out of the water when they were finished breeding last year. This year I'll be setting them up in permanent tanks with land and water area. One friend of mine has 1/3 of his tank stacked with limestone rocks. I'm not sure If I'm brave enough for that. I'm afraid something is going to die near the bottom of the pile and foul the tank.

Michael, how about a setup with a platform of bricks on the bottom, and a few pieces of flat limestone with crevices on top? It would be fairly easy to see what's going on in the brick area, and only a few limestone pieces would need to be moved if you wanted to hunt for missing newts.

Seeing how many people keep this specie nowadays, wouldn't it be wise to bundle all the information and experience we have, and create a caresheet?

I completely agree, Coen. If anyone with kaiseri breeding experience will compile information for a caresheet on Caudata Culture, please contact me. I can help with the project, but we need an experienced person to provide the information.

 

[ajc]

If anyone with kaiseri breeding experience will compile information for a caresheet on Caudata Culture, please contact me. I can help with the project, but we need an experienced person to provide the information.

I'm happy to contribute but I don't have time to lead this right now.

 

[John]

Failing an experienced breeder of kaiseri raising his or her hand, is it absolutely necessary for the "compiler" to have experience breeding the species? I would have thought that a suitable document could be prepared from the collection of informal accounts from the various experts here and their subsequent amalgamation by an erudite editor. Ouch. I need to lay off the Public Radio. Next I'll be using words like "burgeoning" and "surreptitious", whatever those might mean.