Platies with axolotls

It seems like everyone might be a little harsh on Reptileguy2727. He is advocating temps in the low 70s and pellets are a staple of the Axolotl colony. Platies are also a subtropical fish and as he and fishbase say they can handle some lower temperatures, at least 68F and maybe lower. He may be operating at the low and high end of each animal's preference but it also seems that he has a good knowledge of animal husbandry and will provide good accomodations.

I would be worried about platies picking on the gills of the axolotl. It's just too tempting of a target for a fish that likes to pick around as much as most platies.

The NLS food sounds really interesting. I've been looking for a good high quality food for my fish and I think that I will give this a shot. It's not too expensive and I can get it from the site that sells my sponge filters. Most of the NLS foods have (what seems) a low max protein of 34%. I would compare that to the pellets the Axolotl colony uses just to get a benchmark of what a known successful pellet diet has.
 
Reptileguy2727 said:
I just got some axolotls. Right now they are in a 20H but I will be putting them in either a 55 or a 40L. I have read that you should not keep any fish with axolotls because they will either end up as food or nip at their gills. But I figured platies usually stick to the top and I would like something else in the tank. Has anyone had any issues with platies with axolotls?
Click to expand...

this was the original post. he asked for advice and then when he was given the advice he argued with it.

sometimes "being hard" on somebody is the only way to get through to somebody. and in this case it seems that that didnt even work very well. i'll stop posting in this thread but i want it known that anybody that blatently ignores good advice is asking for trouble!
 
Abrahm Simons/magustrate, What fish do you have? One of the things I was reading about explained how basic protein % is not always the tell all. Frequently high protein foods have it in forms that are hard or impossible for the fish to digest. With mbunas (herbivorous cichlids form Lake Malawi) you need a low protein diet to avoid malawi bloat, but on one site they were explaining how the quality of the ingredients (including the other ingredients, not just the protein) allow the protein to not cause problems with these fish, even though the exact same food can be used to feed large piscivores.

There have been a few issues brought up here and it is perfectly fine for a thread to stray from its original question or intention if it is needed.

One was platy compatibility with axolotls. As was the intention of the thread it was found that they are not compatible with axolotls because they are so nippy. This helped me decide to not even try putting platies with my axolotls, which was the whole point of the thread and thank you all for helping me decide that without having to see an axolotl with torn up gills to learn it. This brought us into the second issue which was temperature.

Temperature was thought to be a second issue that would make them incompatible. However I think it has been shown that axolotls and platies have a decent overlap with temperature, at least enough to make them compatible tankmates. That brought up another issue, axolotl temperature.

It was shown that ideally axolotls are in the mid to upper 60s. Mine will be at approximately 72F which many felt was not good for them at all. Although outside of ideal, I felt this was fine. When I consulted the breeder of my axolotls and found that he simply keeps them below 75F, it showed that 72F (at least for my axolotls) is perfectly fine if not ideal since they were bred in water warmer than many.

The last issue was diet. Many people have tried different things, or just one or two, and found one that works 'best' for them. NLS has proved time and time again that it is an amazing food. With my experience with live foods in the past along with a compilation from customers after working in pet shops for 6 years, I have found live foods to be insufficient and even harmful. Nature is the best place to start, but I feel that the risks involved with live foods are not worth it, at least when there are even better alternatives that do not carry these risks. Even if there were no risks with either, the results that I have seen and heard about with high quality pellets leads me to use them over live food whenever possible.

I am not simply reading and ignoring. If that were the case I would have only started this thread and then moved on until I found a forum that agreed with me. It is debates like this that have lead to the best improvements I have ever made in the care of my reptiles and especially of my fish. And I feel that if I cannot support them against strong opposition, then maybe they are not that right to begin with. I always take advice from the experts very seriously, but I do not simply change everytime I hear a different point of view. If that was the case my methods would change by the hour depending on which site or book I read from last or who posted last on a thread.
 
Abram, that was the information I was looking for. No one said pelleted food was bad. But some pelleted food is terrible. Some brands are not appropriate.

Reptileguy, your logic is flawed, however. Comparing fish to axolotls is like comparing turtles to parrots. They're not the same. They may be similar in some aspects, but they're not the same. So using your logic that it's a good fish food does not make it appropriate for axolotls.

Also, just because your animals were bred at a higher temperature does not mean they can survive at that temperature. Axolotls are very sensitive. That being said, I don't think 72F is going to pose a problem. Just try not to let the tank go over 75F. But as with most things, having something slightly out of ideal is much better than huge fluctuations.

I still think you should suppliment your axolotls diet with live foods. Earthworms, waxworms, and occasionally pinky mice make good treats. Live foods do not 'increase aggression' as these animals don't hunt and kill their prey, they just swallow it. Even without live food, you'll never lose the instinct to snap at anything that moves. Axolotls will always bite each other, mistaking legs for food. Also note that most pet shop employees don't know a thing about the care of amphibians in general, let alone axolotls. Take what they have to say with a grain of salt.
 
I have not talked to any pet shop people who had a clue about axolotls. If they are so far from fish why is it that you can feed them the same live foods as you would to fish? If that same fish could also do well on pellets, why can't the axolotls? Just because they are not fish does not mean they cannot do well on the same diet.

Breeding conditions leads to changes in tolerances in the offspring. Discus bred in a pH of 8.0 are much hardier of higher pHs than discus bred at 6.0. If they are thriving in a temperature enough to breed in, how is it that they cannot survive in that very same temperature?

Live foods definitely increase aggression. I see it in fish, reptiles, and amphibians. Axolotls don't hunt, they just swallow? So their prey just walks to their mouth and climbs in and the axolotls decides to swallow? They still hunt it down. It is not like a lion stalking an antelope, but they still have to go after a live moving animal in order to eat. My wild caught common snapping turtle was raised with fish and turtles and fed a pellet only diet the whole time I had him. I fed him an assortment of turtle and fish foods. He had a very high growth rate that was very healthy growth. He also stayed with fish. When he was 9" he was in with turtles that were about 4" as well as goldfish that were about 5". He never bothered any of them. He would sit there with a fish right in front of him and not even move, yet ten seconds later when I tossed in pellets he went crazy after them (and was even careful about the other turtles). So I guess you are right, live doesn't increase aggression, but prepared reduces aggression. Of course the instincts are still there. I would not have trusted him if I left for week and no one fed him, I would not have expected him to not go after the turtles or fish if he were hungry enough. It is simply what an animal associates with food. An animal that is always fed live and is therefore used to live moving animals as being food is going to be more aggressive than one who has been fed prepared foods its entire life. They are not fish, but their diet is very similar to the diet of many fishes'. If those fish would do best on diet X, why would an axolotl with the same dietary requirements not also do just as well on that diet?
 
Reptile guy

-axoltols are far from fish, they are amphibians, yes they eat the same, however you could say the same for a heron and a garfish, that does not mean they are similar. axolotls may do fine on that diet, this is not what the arguement is about, we are pointing out that it is not the optimum diet, and that any predators optimum diet should include either dead or live food.

-again we are not saying that they cannot survive in that same temperature, they can, however, an axolotls optimum temperature is not your temp, although they may well be ok in it. again, goldfish can be put in tropical tanks, indeed they may be bred in tropical tanks, but that does not mean that it is the optimum condition for it, even if it is breeding.

-it depends what you call "aggression". i have fed my axolotls live food for a long time, and the only differance is that they head shake while eating. they do not actively hunt each other down or bite each other, even a little bit.

-axolotls do not hunt their prey. they sit, and wait around, and yes, they do quite literally wait until somrething drops into their mouth. they may move to more optimum areas of the lake to "hunt" however they wait and only snap if the LIVE creature they with to eat is within snapping distance, they do not "hunt it down". snapping turtles are predators, yet they do not move one inch, they use a lure, and get prey to come to them.

-you say that you raised your snapping turtle purely on pellets.... the same thing can be said about dog owners that feed their dogs canned and dried dog food. dogs are carnivores, and if they do not have raw bones and the like to chew on, their teeth become very poor, and disintegrate, and also cause internal problems, because they are not designed to cope with this new, man made diet. in the same way your snapping turtle needs certain things from his wild food, that only that can give it, i am not sure what it is, but pellets offer absolutely no roughage at all, so that turtle, although not aggressive, is not in optimum health, i assure you.

in your last point: "their diet is very similar" the key word is similar. so are you saying that if you put a scarlet macaw in with a cockateil and have the cockateil eat the macaws diet it would survive? no, is the answer, it would not, because although they both eat vegetation, and berries, the macaws diet is poisonous, and so it has adapted by eating claw from cliffs. although their diet is very similar, they have each adapted to different surroundings, and the same is true for axolotls and fish.

my point is, surely it is our duty to try at least to feed them on food to which they have spent millions of years adapting to. esp. with your snapping turtle, as it is out of the wild, it should, i believe, be your duty to try to recreate its natural environment, including some food (though not the turtles) as you have taken it from the wild. obviously this is hard/impossible, but one thing is for sure, axolotls had a far higher chance of finding a worm, or bloodworm in the wild than some ultimax convenience pellet.

Alex
 
Last edited:
Just looked through my books. Each with axolotl entries explain an aquatic carnivorous diet, just like many fish. One even noted that the axolotl's diet is so similar to trout's that trout chow (and other carnivorous fish diets) can be used as a good staple diet for them. If they have the same diet then they have the same diet and therefore their diet (food) should be the same.

How is an environment proper enough to provide breeding conditions not good enough for them to live in?

This forum is not about cockatiels, macaws, herons, dogs, or gars. Those are specific examples of analogies that I did not even use to support my point of view, so why are they being argued against?

Diet is about providing all the nutrients that an animal needs. If you do that (whether it is in the form of live or chopped actual prey items or pellets) then you provide for the nutritional requirements of the animal. What are pellets? They are usually a chopped up form of an ASSORTMENT of PREY ITEMS along with added supplements formulated specifically to fulfill the dietary needs of the animal. So not only do you get the nutrition from the original prey items that were put into the food, but you also get the benefit of the supplements, all this without the risk of pathogens.

Every case is different. Sometimes there is no noticable difference in aggression level between individuals fed live only and pellet only diets, sometimes the differences are quite remarkable. Overall there is a trend that pellet only diets lead to a less aggressive individual.
 
Last edited:
if you find me an "aggressive axolotl" that has been made so by live foods then i will eat my hat.

i refered the the other examples because they both show exactly the same circumstances, or similar, with other animals, i'll give you another if you like, you cant feed pellets only to golden nugget plecs (L18 and L81 are the common ones) because they need bogwood to graze on.

What i am trying to get at with these examples is even if you do feed a pellet only diet, there is no way that it is getting EVERYTHING that a natural diet would give it. pellets are soft, and have no roughage whatsoever, which it would get in the wild, and is needed by all predators, including snapping turtles. plus, i would like to find out the calcium content of these pellets, mainly for the snapping turtle, but axolotls also need some in their diet.

"trout chow" is also not optimum diet for a trout, as there is no food "to chew on" their teeth degenerate. as a fisheries officer to a local angling club, which stocks trout, i can tell you that trout do not do their best with trout chow, unless they are in a wild situation where they are able to also get some of their natural diet. if this is the case, then it is fine, however axolotls are in an aquarium, so cannot suppliment their diet with natural food, as they are in a confined area indoors.

and another point, you said how this forum is not about cockatiels, macaws, herons, dogs, or gars, well in my book it is not about snapping turtles either, which you introduced as an example, so there is no reason for me to use examples of other animals, in the same way as you did.

at the end of the day, we could argue this point till the end of this earth, i argue this point every week with dig owners, and all i can say is i believe your axie would benefit from a little live food, or if you are not willing to agree to that, then maybe you could try frozen bloodworm, i am quite sure that would not make your axie more aggressive.

Alex
 
Last edited:
I do not agree with the dog's teeth degenerating either. My dog is 13 and has 13 years of wear on her teeth, but they are still there. I fed her dry pellet diet, not canned. When she was younger she would chew on rawhides and other chew 'bones'. I can see how a canned only diet could cause problems with their teeth. But I do not think they NEED actual bones, although they do make good chews. If you have any good links explaining the contrary I would like to check them out.

There will always be exceptions. There are certain species as mentioned that do need something physical from their food as well. My gold nugget pleco is in a tank full of three different types of driftwood. Some need something mental from their food, such as parrots and toys that hide food so they have something to do besides walk over to the food dish.

The snapper's shell was nice and hard and properly formed, so I know there was enough calcium. Most of the foods I fed him were turtle pellets which tend to have a lot of calcium in them. When I had fed a lot of goldfish to water turtles they developed pyramiding which is a sign of too much protein. Granted goldfish may not be the ideal live food for them, but other fish would do the same thing.

The point is when I have tried varied diets of live foods in the past it has consistantly failed to let them thrive.

The snapping turtle example showed a very strong example of pellets reducing aggression. And it was a common snapper not an alligator snapper. This type does not use a lure to catch prey, it lunges for its prey (hence the long neck on commons not present in alligators snappers).The other examples that were brought up were not things that I mentioned or even agree with yet it was like they were being replied to as if I used them to support my opinion. The macaws eat the clays in certain cliffs to get trace elements and micronutriens that lack in the rest of their diet, it is not to allow them to cope with toxic foods as far as I know. Monkeys have learned to eat charcoal from the natives' fires to allow them to eat leafs that are usually to acidic for them to be able to eat.
 
just want to say, this is turning into quite an interesting debate with some really strong arguments both ways... i hope it carries on like it is. its got me hooked to this thread
 
There is no way to convince someone they are wrong when they wholeheartedly believe they're right.

A great analogy (since we're so full of them lately) is cats and dogs. They're quite similar, and live in a similar habitat (our houses). But a dog cannot live on cat food, and a cat will die if provided nothing but dog food. For one, cats need far more protein than dogs, and another is that dog food lacks taurine, as dogs can make taurine on their own, while cats cannot.

So even though these two animals are quite similar (in our minds), their diet requirements are NOT the same. Reptileguy, you seem to be missing that point. Despite your thinking that fish and axolotls are similar, they are not. It doesn't matter what habitat they inhabit. I could name hundreds of animals that inhabit glacial lakes, but that doesn't make them the same.

You have no way to prove indeed it was the pellets that reduced aggression in your snapping turtle. Snapping turtles aren't highly aggressive to begin with, but you admit yourself that you would be wary of leaving it for more than a few days. This leads me to believe it's satiation and not the pellets themselves that reduced predation on the local population. That is, you fed it so much it didn't bother trying to eat the fish. As far as feeding mechanisms, their method is to sit and wait for something to swim by. They do not hunt their food.

As for 'failure to thrive on live food', that's a sign of not providing the proper types of food. In the wild, animals don't eat pellets, and survive just fine. So if yours didn't thrive on live food, it's a lack of proper nutrition.

Macaws use the clay to absorb toxins found in seeds and vines in their diet.

The point of all of this is that you do not know if the pellets are complete nutritionally, as they're not formulated for axolotls. There are some pellets that are formulated pretty specifically for axolotls. There are other pellets that are formulated for fish which are 'good enough' for axolotls. But none of these will provide the same nutrition and behavioral components that live food will provide.
 
Last edited:
What nutritional needs do axolotls have that fish do not that I need to be aware of? I have said repeatedly that they are different and that is what everyone else keeps saying, but no one has specified anything specific of concern except that they are not the same. What keeps getting me is that the live foods and frozen foods suggested are all foods that are fed to fish, making their diet the same as fish. They are getting live and frozen which is not what I plan, but it is still foods that fish would be fed, which is what I plan. Tell me WHAT is different not THAT they are different. Tell me that their protein levels need to be x-y%, that they need vitamin z in their diet because they are prone to a deficiency in it, tell me that they cannot tolerate nutrient w in their diet in levels above u. The analogies being used all support that similar is not equal and all include specific examples of two animals with known differences in diet dictating different foods. So far no one has specified anything like this with axolotls and fish. If there is a known difference please let me know.

So unless you feed your macaw toxic seeds and vines, you don't necessarily need the clay, except for those trace elements.

It was not just the pellets that reduced the snapper's aggression. And snappers may not be the most aggressive animal out there, but try handling one that is not used to it or keeping them with turtles and fish and you will see that they are aggressive. Which is why in general they should never be housed with them. I ran a calculated risk and lucked out. What also helped is that this one was with other turtles and fish since it was a baby and therefore did not associate them with food but as tankmates. And satiation had something to do with it, which is exactly what I tried to address. If it was just satiation than he would not have been nearly as enthusiastic about eating pellets as he was. As soon as they hit the water he was up and active, darting though the tank to eat.
 
Last edited:
Protein: 34%
Fat (min): 5%
Fiber (max): 5%
Ash (max): 9%
Moisture (max): 8%
Vitamin A: 8000 IU/KG
Vitamin D: 450 IU/KG
Vitamin E: 200 IU/KG

information off of nls large fish sinking pellets,gathered from

http://www.aquariumprovisions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=20

soft moist salmon pellets. rangen inc.
protein 44%,
fat 18%,
fiber <5
ash <8

information from the pellets that the indiana axolotl colony use, gathered from http://rangen.com/rangen006.htm

nls website- http://www.nlpublish.com/

dont know if this information would help in this debate, its beyond me personaly.

i just feel that its always best to vary foods from time to time, just my personal opinion.
 
Thank you. I was actually comparing that exact same info this morning. I did find the protein and fat levels for the salmon pellets used by Indiana University and compared it to NLS. The food used by Indiana University has the main ingredient of anchovies (in the form of a fish meal), followed by wheat flour. NLS starts with krill and herring followed by wheat flour.

Does anyone know what the actual ideal numbers are for the nutrition of axolotls? (protein, fat, etc.) I do not mean what are the levels of common foods or what people are using, but what has been shown to be the ideal levels of these nutrients for axolotls.
 
To kick an old horse, specifically: Axolotls should not be fed food with thyroxine, which is found in a fair amount of carnivorous fish food, as well as in the Rangen pellets. This may lead to metamorphosis, which can lead to drowning if the owner is not prepared. Morphing is also quite stressful on the animal, and morphed axolotls have a much lower survival rate, often less than 5 years, than axolotls which do not morph.

Your claim was that they had the same diet because they have the same habitat, which is an invalid argument. They may have similar diet, but that's not due to their both living in water.
 
Axolotls have an aquatic habitat where their diet includes aquatic invertebrates and small vertebrates. This is almost identical to many fish. Secondly, the live foods that most seem to be using and recommending for axolotls are the exact same food items used to feed fish of the same niche. From this it seems that they are at least similar enough to eat the same food. What everyone seems to keep focussing on is that they are different, but no one seems to know how they are different. If they are SO different why can their diet be the same if it is live or forzen but not if the diet is pellets?

Thank you for that information, that is helpful. Is thyroxine found in one of the ingredients? Because I do not see it or a synonym listed in the ingredients for Indiana University's axolotl colony food (please correct me if I missed it). If it is found in one of the ingredients, which one? If it is found in carnivore diets but not as a separate additive it may be from the food items themselves (the fish, fish meals, etc) and therefore may be present in many prey items (including those fed as live or frozen foods).
 
do you want to know how they are differant purely with regards to food, and nutritional requirement?
if not:
axolotls have external gills and lungs
axolotls do not have scales
axolotls have legs
i believe axolotls hearts have a double valve system, fishes dont.
also many more that i cannot be bothered to list, like, they are amphibians.

Alex
 
Those are the obvious differences. I need to know the differences in diet and nutritional requirements. These are the vital differences between fish and axolotls that would dictate that the two have different foods.

Fish have a two chambered heart while amphibians (and lungfish) have a three chambered heart.
 
Last edited:
As a child we had our first red eared terrapins..we at the time where told to feed them fresh meat ( and to keep them in a shallow bowl..and no they grow no bigger than a 50 pence coin!). over the first months they became ill, so we tried just about every fresh food/ frozen food to no avail. In desperation I contacte London Zoo and they sent a sample of pellets to try, plus a contact to purchase them. We were loathe to feed them this as we believed we should feed them as natural diet as possible.. but the pellets worked , the terrapins grew to the size of a large dinnerplate and spent the summer out side in the garden pond eating just about any thing that came in their way...fish pellets, fish, frogs, toads even one of my baby mice reached a sticky end. The last one died at the age of 25 after climing out and was caught by a cat. I have since had more terrapins that thrived and out grew my home and had too move on. Now I have my first Axolotl and I choose to feed them fresh food , that being various meat, sea food river shrimp , worms etc. should I have concerns about their well fare I know I can feed them salmon chow or even the axolotl pellets( if i can source some). At the end of the day we chose to take on these wonderfull creatures, food quality is important. Common sense tells me to try to give them the closest thing to their original diet, I would love to see them in their natural enviroment ( the children want to buy a house by where they live with a big window that lets you see them underwater) and to be able to see exactly what they do eat. Through the forum I have learnt a lot, and will learn more over the years and months. If you look back over the years forum messages thing have changed regarding feeding and up keep of these animals. I think we all have a lot to learn and discover still. Appologies for the rambling, I have a small hoard of children twittering in my ear and I know I am loosing my thread( and mind). I think you should 'experiment' with your ideas, but watch very carefully over your animals, at the first signs of unhappiness, stress etc be prepared to repair! and this is all I am going to say on the matter. All the best
 
I understand that you're arguing that the pellets are better cuz they provide supplements! wee! -=eyeroll=- But that doesn't necessarily mean that pellets should be the STAPLE food... and it certainly doesn't mean that they should be the ONLY thing the axies are being fed!

I try to provide ALL of my critters (and yes, there are quite a few in my household) with diet that changes... I've NEVER talked to a vet, herpetologist or otherwise, who hasn't insisted upon a varied diet.

Say there was this miracle pill (because that's what we're really talking about here, 'cept in pellet form). This pill claims to provide everything you need. Would you really want to give up a delicious chicken marsala or slice of mouthwatering cheese cake to choke down a pill every day? Give me pancakes!

Pellets just seem (to me atleast) to be like the big macs of the reptile/amphibian world. Fast, easy, and sure, you can live off of it, but it's really not suggested. The food has some of the things you need (lettuce, tomato, onions, some dairy) but a bunch of **** you don't need... pellets seem to me to be the same thing.

And since when did Man EVER know better than nature? I mean, we've always just screwed things up more in the grand nature-esk scheme of things. I guess I've always just assumed that if these animals can survive in the wild just fine, then obviously nature knows what she's doin'. (and don't give me this endangered species b.s. Most animals are on that list because of human stupidity.)

I really AM enjoying this argument, despite how angry I'm getting reading the thread, because everyone feels REALLY strongly about what they're saying... and it's a learning experiance I guess. I don't claim to know any better than anyone else... that's why I'm on here in the first place... because I'm new at this.

Hmm... just my musings I guess.
But after that particular post, I'm definately hungry...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    Chat Bot: Kepuchie has left the room. +1
    Back
    Top