Phase/hybrid-Let´s think a little

[pete]

I don't disagree. If you spend 1200 bucks for a retarded snake, it is sad on many levels. However, if I'm willing to take the time to breed a snake that has a unique pattern and is in essence wt on all other aspects. How much would you be willing to pay or what price is acceptable to charge?

After re-reading this thread it seems to me, the problem is that public knowledge. I don't think many people are aware of the associated problems. It is near impossible to expect any sort of regulation. However, if you tell me the snake is retarded then surely I wouldn't pay nearly as much. Spread the word.

(Note: I use "retarded" because it captures the gross-nature of the phenotype, as opposed to "neurological problems". It's an emotional play.)

 

[JWERNER]

The problems are clear because the area of dog lines are older and well-established. With recent breedings of course back-crossing and out-crossing, should be done to create stable lines and this will happen directly or indirectly over time through the selection process.

No, the problems are clear cause they go beyond skin and coat color.

When was the last time anyone selectively bred a reptile for more wrinkles, or any of the same characteristics we have bred into dogs?

 

[Azhael]

They are selectively breeding them to be completely scaleless...

 

[pete]

No, the problems are clear cause they go beyond skin and coat color.

When was the last time anyone selectively bred a reptile for more wrinkles, or any of the same characteristics we have bred into dogs?

I'm confused as to why you feel this should matter. A selected trait is a selected trait. There is just a longer history of selection in dogs.

 

[pete]

They are selectively breeding them to be completely scaleless...

As dogs and cats have been bred to be hairless? A naked snake sounds about equally as ugly....

just as long as we don't get "purse snakes"

 

[JWERNER]

After re-reading this thread it seems to me, the problem is that public knowledge. I don't think many people are aware of the associated problems.

You are wrong. Plenty of people are aware of the problems. The animals successfully bred in captivity and selectively bred for certain traits weigh out those that have had problems that people can only assume are associated with such acts of breeding. Dont know about you but that tells me that captive and selective breeding in general is not the issue

Poor specimens chosen as well as inbreeding is the issue. Not captive breeding and selective breeding for specific traits alone. If anything the problem is people that dont have a clue what they are doing introducing unhealthy captive bred animals into the trade.

 

[JWERNER]

I'm confused as to why you feel this should matter. A selected trait is a selected trait. There is just a longer history of selection in dogs.

It was a rebuttal to something you attempted to use as a poor example.

If your confused you are only confusing yourself. You brought it into the discussion.

 

[Azhael]

Please keep it calm.

I don´t feel Pete´s example is a poor one. You keep pretending that color traits are the only genes being selected, which is extremely unlikely.
Dogs have accumulated much more mutations simply because they are an animal that has been selectively bred for thousands of years. There are examples of dogs and cats that carry mutations associated with certain types of coat or color. It really is exactly the same case with all the domesticated animals, the difference is how long they have been suffering artifitial selection.
As it gets worse and worse with snakes and geckos, we´ll witness new mutations, some of which will also be morphological ( as scalessness). Bare in mind we are also breeding for dwarfism these days....

 

[JWERNER]

I am being calm. Pete attempted to perform a play on words and it almost seemed to me as if he was trying to manipulate. He brought the subject into the discussion then asked why it was relevant to the topic after I stated a point.

Dogs that show problems today have been bred for many more reasons than what we breed reptiles for. I sure hope we will not breed reptiles to do our hunting or retrieving and prance around a AKC for reptiles show ring.

Dwarfism is something I am against and I can agree on ( remember we are somewhat on the same page) but what are we really breeding for besides color and pattern? News of any tailless reptiles is new news to me.

Besides, as I stated my main argument is for those against color phases.

I asked the question, how many reptiles are we breeding for more wrinkles? Or, how many are we breeding for longer ears and larger noses?

 

[Mac Myers]

It was a rebuttal to something you attempted to use as a poor example.

If your confused you are only confusing yourself. You brought it into the discussion.

Settle down there man.... His example was completely valid as presented and I had no trouble understanding the context. He made a point and he did it clearly. :happy:

I'd love to add something to this discussion that hasn't already been mentioned. But I can't. I agree with more of, and most of what Azhael said. And I too get a bit tense and cranky when it comes to this subject and my past experience with unethical breeders colors my thought process completely.

 

[JWERNER]

Settle down there man.... His example was completely valid as presented and I had no trouble understanding the context. He made a point and he did it clearly. :happy:

I'd live to add something to this discussion that hasn't already been mentioned. But I can't. I agree with more of, and most of what Azhael said. And I too get a bit tense and cranky when it comes to this subject and my past experience with unethical breeders colors my thought process completely.

If only words can truly express feelings. I was being calm. I actually am having troubles with editing my posts and copy and pastes right now ( kids fudged the KB this morning ) or it would have all been done in one post. Maybe that is why everyone thinks Im taking it with edge, but im not:happy:


Regardless of opinions on what type of a example it was I am being calm. The fact as I said was that after stating what he did and I replied he acted as if it wasn't relevant in the first place. Sorry but thats just not the kind of thing you wanna do in a debate.

And I wil stand behind this. Breeding dogs and cats and comparing them to how and why we breed reptiles is like comparing apples to oranges, no matter how clear it was spoken.

 

[Azhael]

Understood, Jwerner, don´t worry. We all know how the internet sometimes makes it feel like things are being said with another tone.

I keep thinking that the only difference is the amount of time, and therefore of traits selected, and the differences that are inherit to each type of animal, obviously dogs and snakes are not the same (how can someone breed for larger ears in snakes?¿ xD)
Aside from colors, we are breeding for lack of scales, dwarfism, tameness, gigantism....and this has happened VERY fast. In another 10 years i wouldn´t be at all suprised if someone came out with a wrinkly snake...

Anyway, despite my personal views, i´ll repeat my argument is not against color mutations (if done responsibly), it´s against irresponsible breeding. We are breeding absolutely anything that can be sold, that´s a fact. There are no lines on what should or shouldn´t be done, and we are ALL going to pay the price (and in some cases we already are), which is extremely unfair.

 

[pete]

If only words can truly express feelings. I was being calm. I actually am having troubles with editing my posts and copy and pastes right now ( kids fudged the KB this morning ) or it would have all been done in one post. Maybe that is why everyone thinks Im taking it with edge, but im not:happy:


Regardless of opinions on what type of a example it was I am being calm. The fact as I said was that after stating what he did and I replied he acted as if it wasn't relevant in the first place. Sorry but thats just not the kind of thing you wanna do in a debate.

And I wil stand behind this. Breeding dogs and cats and comparing them to how and why we breed reptiles is like comparing apples to oranges, no matter how clear it was spoken.

I'm still not clear on your argument. Do you mean to say that because the trait is skin color there is no chance of a linked negative trait? If your point is just to discredit the dog/cat analogy. I agree there are differences (mainly time of domestication and species). But a trait is a trait. I'm not talking about fungus from wrinkles, which is a side effect of the trait, but I am talking about genetic diseases in dogs like blindness and kidney disease, which now are common in different breeds as a biproduct of genetic selection.

Purebred Dogs a Guide to Hereditary and Congenital Diseases

 

[michael]

I'm having trouble figuring out what I like the best out of leucistic Cynops cyanurus, leucistic ribbed newts, emerald green eyed axolotls, and leucistic green fluorescent protein axolotls. I guess it's a toss up between the emerald eyed axolotls and the leucistic gfp axolotls. Both are important research tools and neat as heck for pets.

 

[Azhael]

With all due respect, Michael, and i don´t wish to stir the discussion into the personal, but what was the point of your post? I can´t shake the feeling it actually sounded like advertisement¿? I´m sorry but it´s the impression i get...

The introduction of laboratory modified strains into the hobby is another practice that just makes me angry. I can understand the aesthetic value of a GFP "axolotl", but to me the introduction of them into the hobby crossed a line that shouldn´t have been crossed. It´s happened with some strains of pet rats too, and i think this kind of action has a very dangerous potential.

On another note, i just saw a video of some fellow spanish hobbyists opening the eggs (a practice that i personally find ridiculously unnatural) of a ball python clutch to see if they had succeeded in getting sterling pastels. They get one and they are all excited, but right after there is a nominal and the guys go "oooh...bah...there always has to be one of these...what a pitty" (you could smell the disappointment). It made me FURIOUS to hear such an insulting comment about an animal that wasn´t even born yet. It´s not like eating a chocolate and realizing it´s nougat...this thing is ALIVE.
We no longer have any admiration or respect for the animal itself...all we care about is the color or the mutation. I´ve said it before, and i know i´m very repetitive, but this is just wrong. It´s like being dissapointed and not wanting your new born baby because it has brown hair instead of blonde. We have become so shallow, it´s disturbing...

 

[Nathan050793]

We no longer have any admiration or respect for the animal itself...all we care about is the color or the mutation. I´ve said it before, and i know i´m very repetitive, but this is just wrong. It´s like being dissapointed and not wanting your new born baby because it has brown hair instead of blonde. We have become so shallow, it´s disturbing...

I understand full well what you mean, but I feel "we" may be the wrong choice of words here. You nor I nor many of the others on this forum behave in that manner in regard to our animals. Clearly, though OTHERS in the hobby, often (I say often, because it is unfair to say all) those that create designer color morphs fit the description you've laid-out.

It's a sad reality, but people tend to leap at the chance to have something colorful and exotic. Neurergus kaiseri is considered by many to be one of the world's most beautifully patterned newts, and what is the result? It makes sense that color morphs attract the same, if not a higher degree of attention. And what's worse, people have the know how to breed them selectively. As long as there is a market, someone out there will be willing to create the supply.

 

[jclee]

The introduction of laboratory modified strains into the hobby is another practice that just makes me angry.

[...] It´s not like eating a chocolate and realizing it´s nougat...this thing is ALIVE.
We no longer have any admiration or respect for the animal itself...all we care about is the color or the mutation. I´ve said it before, and i know i´m very repetitive, but this is just wrong. It´s like being dissapointed and not wanting your new born baby because it has brown hair instead of blonde. We have become so shallow, it´s disturbing...

I will admit that I am also a little unsettled by "genetically modified" as opposed to "selectively bred." Even as I type this, I realize that part of it is just cultural connotations. I'm really no expert in genetics, and right now, the dominant cultural narrative of the U.S. is a little skeptical of genetic tinkering -- often for the wrong reasons. (Hey, I loves me my seedless bananas ). Maybe I've just watched Jurrasic Park too many times, and so my brain can't help but think that everything will go horribly wrong somewhere down the road. (Yes I am kidding with that last part.)

I completely share your opinion that "it's disturbing" when breeders and hobbyists get so into the aesthetic that they ignore the living animal. Some people treat their animals like computers, and they're always looking for the newest, "coolest," most expensive thing out there -- regardless of it's actual performance, or whether they will still want it in another year, or start looking for the next big thing. (It troubles me when people trend-hop with technology, too, but that's a whole different conversation.)

I'm with you on this one. Breeders and buyers both need to behave more ethically and responsibly.

(I'm still waffling on the hybrid point... blood parrots do look pretty cool, and they're healthy...)

 

[Azhael]

I was using "we" as an attempt not to place blame on anyone (and to not exclude myself and come out as self-righteous). I would like this discussion to be as far away from personal interests and blame as possible, because it´s purpose it not to yell at people and say "bad, bad man, bad", it´s to try and make people think a little about this stuff, contrast opinions and have a polite discussion.

I have no choice but to accept that the average hobbyist is impressed primarily by looks (we all are to some extent, and to negate that is absurd), i just think we are placing WAY TOO MUCH importance in appearance, and that we are justifying some stuff, like illegal collection of protected species, artifitial alteration of species, etc, because of very selfish notions.
We really need to apreciate each species and each individual for what it is, and not for what it looks like. N.kaiseri is not objectively better than C.orientalis, we just give it a much higher value because of the associated status it provides. We tend to think that someone who keeps Neurergus or Laotriton (for example) is a pro, but that person may be a very negligent keeper. We value status and not hability or experience. It´s another example of how shallow we have become.

 

[michael]

With all due respect, Michael, and i don´t wish to stir the discussion into the personal, but what was the point of your post? I can´t shake the feeling it actually sounded like advertisement¿? I´m sorry but it´s the impression i get...

Why is it when somebody says something like "With all do respect" it doesn't come off sounding respectful?

I was trying to say that their is plenty of room in the hobby for everybody. I think as long as people accurately describe what they are trading and selling it's all good. If you don't go in for that kind of thing ignore it. I had a stand next to a guy at a show that had a scaleless bearded dragon. He had to use skin lotion on it. It wouldn't be my choice but I respected his choice to work with them. I am impressed with some of the variety that has cropped up in salamanders and have chosen to work with some of the oddball stuff. Out of the animals I listed as some of the types that cropped up in salamanders I only am currently selling one type. I think gfp axolotls are great and am thrilled that I was able to introduce them to pet keepers in the U.S.

 

[Azhael]

The "with all due respect" part was genuine, i assure you.

I see your point now, but i didn´t see it in your previous post. It was just an aesthetical judgement of some aberrants in a praise like tone, with no link to the discussion.
I personally think that breeding scaleless reptiles is a slap in the face of biology...and i fear it´s going to become a lot more common in the future. In the case of snakes it raises a problem that i don´t think people realise...snakes have a scale covering the eye...but if you breed a scaleless snake, there is nothing to protect the eye! And who pays the consequences...the poor animal...