Paramesotriton laoensis

[TJ]

Hi Stephan, incredible picture of those mites. Mine are almost mite-free now, but I have allowed a few to remain just because I and others are interested in them and like you said, they seem to be doing no harm.

Paul, Japanese herpetologists have also taken note of them, so your German scientist had better hurry up with his report if he wants to be the first to describe them

I am only aware of there being a single aquatic mite species found on salamanders that's been described so far, with seems odd. Do you have a photo of the P. deloustali one?

Hi William. Yes, they're here now and it'll be great if they become established through captive breeding efforts. They seem like hardy captives, at least I haven't heard of people having any problems with them yet. As for secrecy, I haven't had them long and just wanted time to savour them quietly. But now that I see there's likely to be some real discussion about them and not just show-and-tell, I'm happy to jump in

This is what I meant about my female(s) looking gravid:

 

[william]

wow excellent shot there Tim! I have to say if i had these, i would be shouting about it from the rooftops! these almost make me want to warm to paramesotriton!

 

[paul]

@Tim
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Tim wrote on Friday, 17 March, 2006 - 18:11 :</font>

"Do you have a photo of the P. deloustali one?"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
don't have the "deloustali-mites", because my P. deloustali are from Tam Dao!
Paul

 

[mark]

Does anyone have any population data for this species? It would be a real shame if it suffered from over collection, and I can see it being a very popular species to collect. It would be great to see some captive breeding - and soon - get busy people!! (and newts of course!).

 

[ralf]

It's a pity that there is no sound habitat description as well. Not even the most basic habitat parameters.

 

[paul]

I think we will hear something more about laoensis habitat in Gersfeld this year

Paul

 

[stephan]

of course we will, there will be a presentation about Laoensis and the habitat in Gersfeld in Oktober this year. And there is one already out from our last trip to Lao in 2005.
To Paul, ich habe noch nicht auf die Frage nach den Bildern von dem Jungtier geantwortet, sorry, das Tier ist bei Thomas und vielleicht solltest du mit ihm abstimmen es dort aufzunehmen, die Qualität meiner Bilder ist nicht optimal.

 

[TJ]

New York Times article:

Scientists Discover a Salamander; Now Profiteers Have Found It Too
(April 25, 2006)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/science/25find.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

[frank]

I know I will sound somewhat parochial but I can't let this be... It is not only Japanese people who took and sold P. laoensis. Some Germans made this species quite easily available in Europe. In my opinion, the hobby can suffer greatly from these commercial activities in wild caught newts that are barely known and only from very few localities. The first one has already been offered for necropsy at my clinic. I would refer to the sad story with the N. kaiseri...

 

[TJ]

True, and it was after the animals were already circulating in Europe that they came to circulate in Japan.

The NYT article seems to be a take on an article that appeared in the Japanese press a few days earlier, based on Mr. Stuart's remarks, and the Japanese article too neglected to mention this fact...possibly because Stuart himself was unaware of this at the time he spoke.

"Just the last month, they've become available for the first time" -- Stuart

 

[mark]

This is the one part of the hobby that really, really sucks. Mr Stuart is correct. More needs to be done to protect the species before it is announced to the world. I hope that the “100” specimens are all that get taken. I suspect at those prices it’s far from the last of the collection. A real shame.

 

[sergé]

Hey,

as long as we BUY these newts we create these markets and there will always be people willing to collect them for profits with these prices large profits are made). Same goes for Neurergus kaiseri.

Not to insult people above, but many of the posts above are specimens BOUGHT in stores or directly from the people who took them which makes you guilty. Although the animals are perhaps not protected you should feel morally bad even if they are locally abundant.

Hopefully not all these animals will die in the hands of people who just keep them like expensive goldfish and a few of you will actually study breeding behaviour etc. So we can at least tell mr Stuart one day that the animals were not taken in vain, but then again, if the ones who took them had truly intentions of studying these animals....they could have collected animals and GIVE them to people with knowledge of keeping and breeding Paramesotriton.
But this was clearly not the goal why they were taken!

 

[kamil]

Hi all,

in my opinion it's not that bad, that animals were collected and spread to the people. The more people know the newts and are interested in them, the more persons know about the importance of protection. If the animals stay there, they are just some newts. If you can see them at home or friends and they are rare, the more special they are and more people want to know them in peace.
And hey, no species plopped out of the air and fall into a tank. Every species in husbandry began with wildcaught animals. So why fight against the first trials on this species before they can show successful effects?

 

[mark]

Well laoensis seems to be restricted to only a few locations, so collection of this number of animals (100+) will probably have a considerable effect on the in situ population.

Furthermore I don't believe that captive breeding of laoensis will be enough in the coming years to cover the demand for this species. So there will, at least for the coming years, remain a demand for wild caught animals.

 

[edward]

This is not that an uncommon a severe problem as this is not the first species to be under threat or even go locally extinct due to collection for the pet trade (example Chinese Cave geckos (Gonisaurus luii). the location of the holotype was collected to extinction within a short period after the publication of the description).

As for developing the appreciation, this is not needed for each and every species of animal particuarly when the collection for the pet trade can/will cause local extinctions increasing the chance that the animal will become extinct. Any similar animal will be sufficient to create the appreciation.
Appreciation for animals goes in cycles of popularity and once it is gone from the wild, all it takes is a couple of waves of loss of interest to render a population non-viable in captivity.


Ed

 

[wouter]

I can't say I'm not interested too in P. laoensis. We however must also realise that these animals are no pond newts. It is known that the population density of Paramesotriton is very low. If there truly are so many P. laoensis taken from the wild, this absolutely has an impact on the population, and it's recovery. Paramesotriton species do not mature fast.

There are quite some people keeping this species then, but I'm a bit sceptical about the upcoming breeding results.
And I fear that the cycle of popularity of P. laoensis as you refer to Ed, is long from over... Indeed, all species have to come from the wild first. But not in these quantities to my opinion.

 

[TJ]

My understanding is that the Japanese acquisition picked up by the medias was a "one-off" so far as these persons are concerned. One can choose to believe that or not, but I have reason to. Certainly 100 is no small number, but the loss from the wild of that many animals would not be in itself a crushing blow to the population, if indeed they're as locally abundant as they're claimed to be (and one also has to choose whether or not to believe that). If it's indeed a one-off in Japan (and I think the negative press coverage assures that it will be), the potential problem, as I see it, is rather the European connection, in which I understand there have been multiple imports (correct me if I'm wrong) and that a route of sorts has been or is being established. If you get a situation where locals are paid to collect on a regular basis and other international dealers also get in on the action, then you've got a real problem.

(Message edited by TJ on April 28, 2006)

 

[andy]

Tim, as far as i know there's hasn't been multiple collections (correct me if i'm wrong) ....in fact i thought there was only the ones just over a year ago...

 

[edward]

snip "And I fear that the cycle of popularity of P. laoensis as you refer to Ed, is long from over... Indeed, all species have to come from the wild first. But not in these quantities to my opinion" endsnip

Its because the cycle is far from over that raises the concern. If this follows the typical pattern, there is a lot of interest because this is a new/rare species so there is a lot of demand for the species. This leads to a lot of demand in the species, a lot of people want them, which drives the legal and illegal collection market. After awhile the interest declines and the population is sold off by the collecting individuals resulting in the population to crash.
This has happened with a number of captive amphibian populations (Epidobates tricolor in the USA has gone through several of those cycles causing the loss of some locality populations, I believe this has happened to D. truncatus in Europe.)

Some thoughts,

Ed

 

[mark]

Unfortunately laoensis is so striking in appearance that the demand will remain high for a long time to come. "One off" collections of newts fetching $180 in the market place are unlikely in my opinion. How hard can it be for the relevant bodies to protect it? What's the delay?

Sadly if laoensis was a drab, grey creature it would be left alone as it has for thousands of year.