Orphicus?

Sorry about poor quality on the last pic- I wanted to show the canthus rostralis and vertebral ridge. Here are a couple more....I tried to get the shots you guys requested but I wasn't very successful. They are obviously very distinct from cyanurus but unfortunately I don't have any orientalis to compare them with. More to come....

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From Risch:

1)head flattened w/fairly prom. canthus rostralis: yes

2)skin very finely granulated: yes

3)tail with small blackish dots and moderate dorsal and ventral fins: yes? (see pics 2 and 3 in first post)

4)bright dots constantly present near base and palm on the underside of each fore and hind limb: yes. see pics in first post and pic 2 in the previous post.

5)ventral pattern: irregular light median longitudinal stripe and dark spots arranged in lateral rows: yes on all six specimens.

As far as some of relevant information from Gressitt:

1)undersides of arms and legs w/a spot near base and another near palm: yes

2) lips of vent largely orange, black posteriorly: yes

I still need to go over the paper by Wake(it's available online somewhere). Especially regarding distance of nasals. Of course yes answers to all of the above does not mean these are orphicus for sure......
 
What's that Erik, don't have any orientalis??

I think the paper you're looking for is the second link that ralf provided. Of course, it's only helpful if you have a cleaned orphicus skull...
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To quote the relevant portions of the paper in Ralf's second link:

"Cynops orphicus is the only species in our sample with a long frontal process of the premaxilla and with nasals widely separated as in Paramesotriton and Pachytriton. In Cynops cyanurus and Cynops wolterstorffi, the frontal process of the premaxilla is long and the nasals almost or narrowly contact one another. The nasals of Cynops orientalis almost or narrowly contact one another as well, but the frontal process of the premaxilla is short rather than long (Zhao and Hu,1988). In Cynops pyrrhogaster and Cynops ensicauda, the frontal process of the premaxilla is short, but the nasals broadly contact one another."

"Broad versus narrow contact of the nasals and long versus short frontal process of the premaxilla together distinguish the pyrrhogaster group, wolterstorffi group, orientalis group, and C. orphicus."

<u>SOURCE:</u>

Relationships of the Salamandrid Genera Paramesotriton, Pachytriton, and Cynops Based on Mitochondrial DNA Sequences
LAUREN M. CHAN, KELLY R. ZAMUDIO, AND DAVID B. WAKE

Copeia, 2001(4), pp. 997�E009
 
One would also need clean Paramesotriton respectively Pachytriton and Cynops orientalis skulls to work with this description respectively to see the differences to C. orientalis. However, my hope was that these osteological (referring to (skull) bones) traits might translate into visible differences when comparing the head shape of live animals of the different species (which seems to be the case here).
Paul, thank you very much for providing the RISCH-article (as well as all the others) on your Cynops-registry website.
 
Hi Erik,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Erik Keyster wrote on Monday, 26 September, 2005 - 22:25 :</font>

" ... but unfortunately I don't have any orientalis to compare them with."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

what a problem
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! What can we do?

Difficult to send you some here from Germany, but if you need some orientals photos, have a look at photo archives of Cynops Register:
http://de.geocities.com/paul_bachhausen/Molch-Register/e_Bild_Archiv.htm

I don't know, if this are orphicus! Unfortunately I have no to compare with
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. But I think it's possible. Also possible that it is an unknown species. I think they are to distinct from orientalis.

Paul
 
So I suppose the next time any of us have a cyanurus or orientalis die, save and clean the skull. This makes me half-tempted to go out to a local pet shop and buy a dying orientalis just to get a skull...

For me, if the animal depicted at AmphibiaWeb is orphicus, and that's good enough for David Wake, then these animals are also orphicus.
 
Yes as Ralf mentions: these osteological differences do seem to translate into visible differences...thats why I wanted to review the paper.On most specimens (especially the 2 that are not as fat)the head resembles Paramesotriton to me. The paper I was referring to was the paper by Chan, Zamudio and Wake.

The only conclusions I have come to are that 1)these are orphicus or... 2)these are something new.

Would we recognize an orphicus for sure if we saw one?

I've looked at the pics on the net or orientalis, but I would like to buy one or two and have them to compare side by side. There are also some measurements I could make based on Gressit's comments (in Risch)and see if any of that sheds any light on this.....but I have a feeling it wouldn't be enough to convince us 100%.

more to come......
 
Well, it's not as if calling them orphicus is merely the best fit...they fit perfectly. True, they could be an undescribed species that looks amazingly similar to orphicus, but I think that's something you could apply to any species. Even if we had one of their skulls cleaned right now, and it fit Wake's description, it still would not rule out the possibility of a new species.
 
Erik,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Erik Keyster wrote on Tuesday, 27 September, 2005 - 16:18 :</font>

"Would we recognize an orphicus for sure if we saw one? "<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

two years ago Max Sparreboom presented a lot of urodela pictures from his China trip. He also had a pic of a newt - looking like yours - which surely was orphicus. Perhaps you would like to contact him.
Paul
 
Thanks Guys. Paul,I will do that, thanks. I was going to send some pics to some Chinese researchers and some American researchers working in China just to get their take on it. I have also received some pics previously from others that were supposedly orphicus and they look very similar. Maybe I am more skeptical than I should be....Nate is right-I think these fit orphicus as well as anything. Once I get some live orientalis to compare, the case will probably be closed at least for me personally.

Now if only someone can track down a new/extant population of wolterstorffi
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Hopefully there will be at least one pair in this group so we can get them into as many keepers hand's as possible. I can tell at least 2 are males, but I have been hesitant to remove them from the water and get a good look at them.
 
Woh there guys, easy now...any sudden mention like that of C. wolterstorffi, however casual, and I get a sudden rush of blood to my head
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I mean, just gazing at this picture is torture enough:
http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/imgs/512x768/1111_1111/1111/0547.jpeg

I once got a mail from somebody in Hong Kong (not our friend Angus) who claimed to have C. wolterstorffi available for an astronomical price. While I didn't believe it for a sec', I still wonder: although it's been almost 20 years since the last reported sighting, might there be an overlooked pond somewhere in the wilds of Yunnan Province where they still might exist? I once saw some "Yunnan Lake Newts" being sold here in Japan but they turned out to be paddletails
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Anyway, here's wishing Erik & partner the best of luck in propagating C. orphicus to help prevent it from suffering the same fate!

(Message edited by TJ on January 01, 2006)
 
You know, regarding wolterstorffi, I used to think there was no way they could still be around. Now, I think it's highly probable considering the current mess of chinese herpetology. It wouldn't surprise me if they show up in the next 5 years.
 
Nasals are the bones. Quite difficult to see through the skin
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Erik: when did you obtain the animals? Was it through some pet shop?

I wonder if there still are specimens left in Sweden. Should ask around at gross pet traders.
 
I think thats possible too, Nate. So many ponds, so few investigations of them. Nobody look thoroughly methodological for them locally

And if they turn up in the pet trade, then we salamanderfreaks together should take the responsibility the chinese government don´t take - to save a live stock of the species for the future. Although ex situ, but extant anyway.
 
I imported these newts from hong kong for a very high price. I wish I had got them at a local shop labled as orientalis!

Well the good news is that today I discovered 2 eggs. The eggs look infertile, but at least I know there are males and females in the group.
 
Erik, congrats on the eggs! Hopefully it's only a matter of time before you get fertile ones.

(Message edited by TJ on January 01, 2006)
 
Erik: at least you got something interesting. It could also be the opposite, importing orphicus for a very high price and getting orientalis. ;-)

(Message edited by TJ on January 01, 2006)
 
At least in terms of skull shape, the snout on Erik's suspect "orphicus" seems more blunt/rounded than that of the suspect C. orientalis I have here:

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(Message edited by TJ on January 01, 2006)
 
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