E
erik
Guest
I'm 99% sure these are orphicus, though it seems too hard to believe. They meet most of Risch's characteristics, but there are a few I still need to check. I'll get better pics/info once they settle in.
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R
ralf
Guest
Thanks for sharing these, Erik.
J
jennifer
Guest
Wow, that would be quite a find!
J
joseph
Guest
Do you have any idea of where they came from?
P
paul
Guest
Hi Erik,
here the information, David Wake wrote me to this species:
"Cynops orphicus is poorly known but we have a large series in this museum, obtained in the 1930's. The largest specimen was 64.4 mm snout to vent with a 51.5 mm tail (female). The largest male is 50.6 mm snout to vent with a 36.1 mm tail. Mean size of females is 53.3 mm Snout to vent, of males is 46.4 mm."
Paul
here the information, David Wake wrote me to this species:
"Cynops orphicus is poorly known but we have a large series in this museum, obtained in the 1930's. The largest specimen was 64.4 mm snout to vent with a 51.5 mm tail (female). The largest male is 50.6 mm snout to vent with a 36.1 mm tail. Mean size of females is 53.3 mm Snout to vent, of males is 46.4 mm."
Paul
W
william
Guest
wow!...
...i feel a debate coming on...
...i feel a debate coming on...
R
ralf
Guest
Erik, do you have the original description by RISCH (1983)? I don’t, but I can offer the French translation by THORN & RAFFAELLI.
Here’s what CHAN et al. (2001) have to say about major morphological differences between the four recognized species groups within Cynops.
„There are osteological differences among the species of Cynops, which can be divided into four groups based on two main characteristics: the length of the premaxilla, and the degree of contact of the nasals. Cynops orphicus is the only species in our sample with a long frontal process of the premaxilla and with nasals widely separated as in Paramesotriton and Pachytriton. In Cynops cyanurus and Cynops wolterstorffi, the frontal process of the premaxilla is long and the nasals almost or narrowly contact one another. The nasals of Cynops orientalis almost or narrowly contact one another as well, but the frontal process of the premaxilla is short rather than long.“
Can we get some more pictures, especially top-view (cranial) of the head?
CHAN, L.M., ZAMUDIO, K.R. & WAKE, D.B. (2001): Relationships of the Salamandrid Genera Paramesotriton, Pachytriton, and Cynops based on Mitochondrial DNA Sequences.
Copeia, 2001 (4) pp 997-1009
RISCH, J.P. (1983): Cynops orphicus, a new salamander from Guangdong prov, South China (Amphibia, Caudata, Salamandridae).
Alytes, 1983, 2 (2). pp 45-52
THORN, R. & RAFFAELLI, J. (2001): LES SALAMANDRES DE L'ANCIEN MONDE
SOCIETE NOUVELLE DES EDITIONS BOUBEE 9, rue de Savoie - 75006 PARIS p 449
Here’s what CHAN et al. (2001) have to say about major morphological differences between the four recognized species groups within Cynops.
„There are osteological differences among the species of Cynops, which can be divided into four groups based on two main characteristics: the length of the premaxilla, and the degree of contact of the nasals. Cynops orphicus is the only species in our sample with a long frontal process of the premaxilla and with nasals widely separated as in Paramesotriton and Pachytriton. In Cynops cyanurus and Cynops wolterstorffi, the frontal process of the premaxilla is long and the nasals almost or narrowly contact one another. The nasals of Cynops orientalis almost or narrowly contact one another as well, but the frontal process of the premaxilla is short rather than long.“
Can we get some more pictures, especially top-view (cranial) of the head?
CHAN, L.M., ZAMUDIO, K.R. & WAKE, D.B. (2001): Relationships of the Salamandrid Genera Paramesotriton, Pachytriton, and Cynops based on Mitochondrial DNA Sequences.
Copeia, 2001 (4) pp 997-1009
RISCH, J.P. (1983): Cynops orphicus, a new salamander from Guangdong prov, South China (Amphibia, Caudata, Salamandridae).
Alytes, 1983, 2 (2). pp 45-52
THORN, R. & RAFFAELLI, J. (2001): LES SALAMANDRES DE L'ANCIEN MONDE
SOCIETE NOUVELLE DES EDITIONS BOUBEE 9, rue de Savoie - 75006 PARIS p 449
N
nate
Guest
IMHO, it's orphicus or a new species closely related to orphicus. The ventral pattern agrees with Risch and the AmphibiaWeb photos for the most part, and that head looks quite distinctive.
I bet some top-view head photos will show it clearly, but that looks to be a very long snout.
I bet some top-view head photos will show it clearly, but that looks to be a very long snout.
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william
Guest
it's not exactly scientific, but the shape of the face looks different to orientalis in the last photo, more bull dog like. how many have you got?
E
erik
Guest
I am working on getting info on the general area they came from. I have 6 but 2 are going to another person on this board. So far I am not positive on the sex ratio of the group.
Yeah I have the paper by Risch and most of the features match, I just haven't had time to go through each characteristic point by point. The head shape is more like Paramesotriton than other Cynops and the canthus rostralis is well developed. Ventral pattern on all 6 matches as
well.
More pics to come, please bear with me as I am very busy right now and It hasn't been easy to get good pics as they are scared of the flash.
Thanks for all the input
Yeah I have the paper by Risch and most of the features match, I just haven't had time to go through each characteristic point by point. The head shape is more like Paramesotriton than other Cynops and the canthus rostralis is well developed. Ventral pattern on all 6 matches as
well.
More pics to come, please bear with me as I am very busy right now and It hasn't been easy to get good pics as they are scared of the flash.
Thanks for all the input
P
paul
Guest
Someone interested in:
RISCH, J.P. (1983): Cynops orphicus, a new salamander from Guangdong prov, South China
I can scan and send the paper!
@Erik, thanks for sharing this photos. Hope to see more and hope you breed them.
Paul
RISCH, J.P. (1983): Cynops orphicus, a new salamander from Guangdong prov, South China
I can scan and send the paper!
@Erik, thanks for sharing this photos. Hope to see more and hope you breed them.
Paul
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danny
Guest
Forgive me for asking, but where does this species originate from? Very distinct colours on these!
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william
Guest
Dayang, Shantou Region, Guangdong provinces
but i think the range is now limited to only one of those now, i don't know which one, but i think it's Dayang.
but i think the range is now limited to only one of those now, i don't know which one, but i think it's Dayang.
TJ
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As far as I know, the location description for this species is meant to say Dayang town in the "Shantou Region" of Guangdong Province -- Dayang being a highland resort area of sorts located in the hills of Jiexi County in the prefecture-level city of Jieyang in the northeastern part of the province.
According to the Global Amphibian Assessment:
<font color="0000ff">"This species is known only from Jiexi County in northeastern Guangdong, China, above 600m asl."</font>
source: http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA?searchName=Cynops+orphicus
Here's the map that's provided there (to orient yourself, that's Hong Kong sectioned off in the lower left):
Source: IUCN, Conservation International, and NatureServe. 2004.
Global Amphibian Assessment. <www.globalamphibians.org>.
Accessed on 24 September 2005.
<font size="-2">"Reproduction of charts and figures for educational or other non-commercial purposes is authorized without prior written permission from the copyright holders provided the source is fully acknowledged."</font>
Here's some related info:
Ecoregions containing Dayang Newt, Cynops orphicus
http://www.worldwildlife.org/wildfinder/searchBySpecies.cfm?speciesID=4630
IUCN Red Book listing for Cynops orphicus: <u>endangered</u>
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=59443
(Message edited by TJ on September 24, 2005)
According to the Global Amphibian Assessment:
<font color="0000ff">"This species is known only from Jiexi County in northeastern Guangdong, China, above 600m asl."</font>
source: http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA?searchName=Cynops+orphicus
Here's the map that's provided there (to orient yourself, that's Hong Kong sectioned off in the lower left):
Source: IUCN, Conservation International, and NatureServe. 2004.
Global Amphibian Assessment. <www.globalamphibians.org>.
Accessed on 24 September 2005.
<font size="-2">"Reproduction of charts and figures for educational or other non-commercial purposes is authorized without prior written permission from the copyright holders provided the source is fully acknowledged."</font>
Here's some related info:
Ecoregions containing Dayang Newt, Cynops orphicus
http://www.worldwildlife.org/wildfinder/searchBySpecies.cfm?speciesID=4630
IUCN Red Book listing for Cynops orphicus: <u>endangered</u>
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=59443
(Message edited by TJ on September 24, 2005)
R
ralf
Guest
Yes Paul,
please send me a copy of RISCH's article.
please send me a copy of RISCH's article.
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paul
Guest
Ralf, Tim, you find a copy of RISCH's article on literature link of Cynops Register now!
Paul
Paul
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kamil
Guest
Hey,
I've seen such looking animals once in a tank together with some orientalis. Is this possible?
Best Greetings,
Kamil
I've seen such looking animals once in a tank together with some orientalis. Is this possible?
Best Greetings,
Kamil
M
mattias
Guest
I saw animals looking like yours in a small tank with muddy water on a fair the 27:th of august in Sweden.
Unfortunately I did not think more about it since there were a group of Hynobius tokyoensis next to them that caught my attention.
I just thought "oddly coloured backs of those orientalis" and went on. It never came to my mind that it could be something else as it never is in Sweden, the salamander-hobbyists desert.
Could they come from the same shipment to Europe?
They were not expensive and probably ended up in some family aquarium meeting the same kind of death as so many urodeles do. A shame I didn´t obtain them...
Mattias
Unfortunately I did not think more about it since there were a group of Hynobius tokyoensis next to them that caught my attention.
I just thought "oddly coloured backs of those orientalis" and went on. It never came to my mind that it could be something else as it never is in Sweden, the salamander-hobbyists desert.
Could they come from the same shipment to Europe?
They were not expensive and probably ended up in some family aquarium meeting the same kind of death as so many urodeles do. A shame I didn´t obtain them...
Mattias
E
erik
Guest
Another pic