Illness/Sickness: Old Newt: Molting or Bloat? Salt Bath Danger?

[epyllion]

More pictures from this evening of both our newts:

 

[Azhael]

Well, i think it´s pretty definitive that this is the end of the road for the poor male. The severe discoloration and general look of the body clearly shows there is a big degeneration of it´s body. I think instead of being a sad moment, it´s a happy one, since he had a very long life, now it´s just its time, there´s nothing more natural.

10 gallons is what is generally regarded as the bare minimum for a single Cynops or a pair. A 10gallon tank, filled to the top, has a volume big enough so that conditions are rather stable, and maintenance is not a nightmare. I´m guessing the female is a big girl...after all they grow their whole lifes so at such an advanced age she must certainly be an impresive pyrrhogaster. That´s why i personally think it would be advisable to try to get a bigger tank if at all possible.
I know tanks don´t grow on trees, but if possible, a 20gallon tank would be just perfect. As i said, a 10gallon is fine, nothing wrong with it, but i sencirely think you would enjoy the whole new system more if you had a 20gallon. It would allow you to stock the tank heavily with plants, eliminate entirely the need for a filter, which she will apreciate, and most of all, it would provide excellent stability and make your life super easy. A cycled, stablished 20gallon tank requires VERY little maintenance at all.
Also, if you get new tankmates after all, a 20 gallon would make an excellent home for a group of 4-5 adults, and provided you have both sexes, they WILL breed xD

 

[epyllion]

Well, you're probably right. Those recent pictures were in natural (daylight) conditions, while the first I posted were lit by incandescent bulbs--that does affect the way the color looks. But I agree, he looks seriously bad. He is shedding a little skin this morning--moving around, but still pretty much looks like the previous pictures.

I don't know how those two survived 20 yrs before meeting us in the 5.5 gallon tank--usually only half full! They did stay in the same place for a long time, with some good long-term bacterial colonies no doubt...

I've got a couple of questions for you about fine-grained sand and maintenance:
* I am wondering if the newts might find it easier to swallow the little sand grains--some risk of impaction there? (With the little pebbles of gravel they've got now, they're probably too bulky to comfortably fit in a newt's mouth...but sand wouldn't be so difficult...)
* Would the sand need to be changed out now and again--or is it pretty much stable and can be left alone once placed? (The gravel we typically rinse out and scoop out now and again--and it's fairly easy to get the built-up stuff out of it. We're wondering if the fine-grained sand might soak up and hold more waste products, and might need to be changed more?) Let me know what you do with the stuff.

Yes, Big Newt is a big girl! I feel bad we've got her in the little 5.5 gallon quarantine tank, but she's alone in her old house and has a few plants around her. We'll look into a bigger tank--got to figure out a good place for it, too!

 

[Azhael]

Fine sand is completely harmless if ingested. It simply passes through.
The key with sand is to place a thin layer, no deeper than an inch. That way, the risk of anaerobic pockets is minimal and you shouldn´t have any problems, ever.

You don´t need to change or clean the sand. Sand doesn´t trap debris like gravel does, it sits on top of the sand and can easily be vacuumed out. However, moving about the sand every few months is not a bad idea, just a little, simply moving it with the fingers.
Sand is an excellent substrate, and if you follow my recommendations and use a thin layer, you won´t have any problems with it. Avoid big rocks on top of the sand, though..i find that lots of dirt gets trapped under large stones.
Obviously, although much less aesthetic, you can also have a tank with no substrate. Pretty...no...but very practical!!! It makes feeding and removing left-overs and debris, extremely easy.

Cleaning and rinsing the gravel has a negative effect since it destroys or damages the benefitial bacteria that grew on it (that slimy transparent film). By using sand, and eliminating the rinsing, the bacteria that thrive between the grains of sand won´t be disturbed, which is great news for you.

Anything else you want to know, don´t hesitate!

 

[epyllion]

Well, it has been about 5 days since I last posted here. The two newts are still in their separate tanks, and Little Newt is still alive...and I think a little bit more active now. He is visibly shedding a thin layer of skin all over. I *think* he is still about the same size as before, but I will try taking and posting a picture tomorrow to see if there is a difference. We're frankly surprised he's still going--and he seems a little more responsive to us now--although not interested in eating. Since he has gotten this far, I wonder if we should try a salt bath?? Can anyone recommend perhaps a gentle formula for him?
(Hope this thread is still visible...)

 

[Azhael]

I´m frankly amazed...that´s one tough newt if ever there was one xD

I´m not sure a salt bath would have any effect at all. If the cause of the bloating was bacterial i would have expected change. The fact that it´s remaining the same, with no further deterioration, doesn´t add up with an infection, really. If it´s not patogen related, then a salt bath will have no effect. However, if it´s caused by organ failure, the salt bath could make things worse by causing further homeosthatic irregularities.
I really don´t know what to recommend, i´m sorry.

 

[epyllion]

I took some pictures to show what's happening. Little Newt appears to be sloughing off a LOT of loose skin--it's just hanging there. Also I see more of his old red-orange color in him now--his coloring looks better to me. I'm not sure if he's really much changed in size at all, but we think his throat might be a little smaller perhaps. What *is* certain and very clear is that he's shedding off layers of filmy skin. I don't know what that means! I want to think it's a sign that his skin is regenerating itself--that he's engaged in some large-scale transition? I *have* seen his skin slough off before--and his companion (Big Newt) would swim over and typically chew on it / help pull it off.

Since we have the newts quarantined, she can't help him with his loose skin issues. He isn't very active, although he does change his position and move about minimally--also hanging out in a shallow end of the tank where the gravel is piled up. It's probably not easy for him in this state to rid himself of loose skin. I am wondering if it might be helpful for him to have us try to gently brush off the excess stuff? My husband wants to go in with a little soft paint brush and gently push off the loose film that you can see hanging off of him in these pictures. Do you think that's a good move--or could we hurt him by doing that? I know his skin is very important for osmoregulation!

In the pix it looks like his mouth is open, but it really is not--he has some dark pigmentation under his lower lip.

 

[Azhael]

Judging by these new, better pics, i´d say it looks more like an edema than the usual bloat. In fact it´s plain to see that the skin is not stretched at all. This could back up my theory of organ failure.

The skin shedding is a bit baffling, though...excessive shedding is common when infections appear. Perhaps the deteriorating organs and assorted internal problems have left the animal exposed to infections.

I really wish i could give you a solution or a treatment, but i can´t :S And i don´t think there´s any to be honest...

 

[epyllion]

Alas. Little Newt showed no sign of movement yesterday. He was increasingly sluggish by the end. We were certain today that he must be dead. I think he really must have experienced organ failure. It was strange that he seemed to be losing his skin and some of his bloat by the end, but I wonder if that was actually part of the dying process. It's sad b/c we've had him for so long.

But we want to make a fresh start for the Big Newt, and I know I would like to continue looking after newts. I wonder if you have any advice on how to find good people who breed cynops pyrrhogaster--and how I might find a newt of the same family as Big Newt? (I'll probably post a new thread on this soon, but figured I'd ask on this thread first.)

 

[Azhael]

I´m so sorry...

There are certainly a few breeders you can contact, the best option i can think of right now is Jennifer Macke, one of our Admins. She has a lot of experience breeding and raising this species. I ignore if she has any animals available now, but it´s only a matter of time. Without sounding like i´m sucking up to her, she really knows what she is doing and i know for a fact her animals are healthy and expertly raised.

Before you try to find new animals, it would be very wise to try and identify the subspecies of the big girl. She is most probably C.p.sasayamae, the male certainly looked so, but if you could take a good picture of her belly, we might be able to determine properly.
This is important because you need to get animals that are the same subspecies.

If you haven´t had experience raising juvenile newts, i suggest you start reading as much as you can. There´s plenty of info in this forum.
Learn as much as possible, prepare cultures if necessary, set everything up...just be ready for the new arrivals and everything will be fine. They might be a little tricky at first, but this is not a difficult species to raise provided they are healthy and you are prepared. I´m sure you´ll do great!

Just for a little excouragement, i got my group of juveniles less than a year and a half ago (they were pretty small), and i´m now raising their offspring They really are a VERY rewarding species that need nothing special. Best of lucks!

 

[epyllion]

Many thanks for all your helpful recommendations, Azhael! Even though we have lost our little companion, I am glad that in the process we found caudata.org.

I'll try to take some clear pix of Big Lady Newt's belly and post them on a new thread, or maybe to the c. pyrrhogaster group which I recently joined. I also want to post a length measurement of her from head to tail to find out how she compares to others. If we turn out to have more than two newts I think we're going to have to come up with a more distinctive naming strategy! She will have to be something like "Eldest" or "Lilith" or something.

 

[Azhael]

Oh, sorry, no need for new pictures of her belly. I had completely forgotten the ones you previously posted (sorry, i´m a bit distracted, i´m on exams).

Judging by those pictures i would certainly think she is of the sasayamae subspecies. Luckily for you, that´s the most common subspecies in captivity, so your chances of finding some CB ones are very good. Jenn breeds this subspecies, i´d drop her a line and see if she has any available.

However, take your time, read a lot, and be thoroughly prepared before you get them. There´s no rush! The better you are prepared, the better they will do under your care.

I should probably say that being THAT old, she might not be able to reproduce anymore or have a very bad ratio of fertility, but nevertheless i for one think she deserves a chance to. I just thought i´d mention it so that you know what you might experience.

I like Lilith, good for the incredibly ancient wonder newt xD I´m sure she is a large individual too, i´m looking forward to seeing the meassurements.

I´m glad you like this forum , i certainly do xD I hope you benefit from our experience and all the information here. I knew very little about captive care for caudates when i first got here, and now i´m the happy keeper (and avid observer) of a beautiful bunch of them. I hope this forum helps you too. And beware! Caudates are HIGHLY addictive xDD

 

[epyllion]

So the elder surviving Big Newt (Lilith the Queen) is about 14 centimeters (or 5 1/4 inches) long...although I must say it is hard to accurately measure a highly interactive and curious newt!