Illness/Sickness: Old Newt: Molting or Bloat? Salt Bath Danger?

[epyllion]

We have two very old c. Pyrrhogaster (Japanese firebelly) newts. We're not sure how old they are, but we inherited them from a friend who bought one (the larger of the two) in 1979 and the other in 1986. We have had them since 2002, and they have survived multiple moves. We've had them in their current 30-gallon tank since 2005--they'd been living in much smaller digs before that. I'm assuming they are 2 males because we've never seen them lay eggs. (We've tried out a few different names for them, but have stuck with Big Newt and Little Newt.)

They've been very healthy, easy pets for us. I watched Little Newt go through a molt a few years ago--just once--and I just remember seeing little filmy bits come off of him, and the bigger newt gamely grazing on them. But we first noticed a problem with the smaller newt just a day or two ago. He seemed a little large and rotund, and he wouldn't eat. That's not really unusual for him--he's always been harder to feed of the two. But he has continued to be uninterested in food, which *is* unusual.

This morning we knew something was wrong. His belly was very big, and his throat seemed to be bulging. We picked him up to look at his stomach, and his color seemed wrong--more yellowish-grey than usual. His skin seemed stretched. His shape seems like he has bloat, but the coloration and the throat gives me pause. The other newt seems absolutely fine.

We took the bloated guy out of the tank and isolated him on a moist towel. He is not lethargic, but a little less energetic than usual. We changed about 80 - 90% of the water--reasoning there might well be something amiss in the tank. We had been leaving some floating bits of tubifex worm about in there when the little newt wasn't eating earlier this week--and we figured maybe that was building up nitrates and the little guy was sick from that. We thought he looked a little better after a while and read somewhere that it might be better to keep him in his normal bacterial environment than to be in too sterile a place, so we returned him to the home tank. We *think* he looks a little better now, and I'm pausing before doing anything drastic.

What I'd like to do is put him in a salt solution for a while, but I'm worried that this could hurt him if I don't do it right. I'm wondering if I should wait overnight to see if he gets better, or if I should *immediately* give him a salt bath. It seems to me that the swelling around his belly is somewhat reduced and his color looks a little better--but what is most pronounced now is his throat--which is still very much enlarged. The first posted picture on the site (and a few other things I've read online) are making me wonder if he could just be about to molt: Caudata Culture - Frequently Asked Questions (See the first picture, next to "My newt just puffed itself up and acted like it was dead, but now it's acting OK again. Is this normal?"

His throat area looks *exactly* the same in shape as what I see in that 2006 image. That is why I'm hoping he's just going to molt. Unfortunately I can't remember if he looked like this before when I saw him molt--I remember his color being greyer and fuzzier than normal, though.

My question is: Could putting him in an epsom salt solution pose any risks for this old newt? Is it safer and gentler on him to leave him in his usual habitat? I gather from what I'm reading that he really ought to be quarantined, but the big guy is fine (and has been hanging almost sympathetically around the little guy all day), and we are being optimistic that a change in water is what was needed.

Could use some perspective!
Thanks,
epyllion--anxious in Pittsburgh, PA.

 

[epyllion]

Here are some pictures. Little Newt has always been shorter but pudgier than Big Newt who has a long, lean look. But Little Newt has never been quite *this* bulky. I tried to get some good pictures of his front to show the area under his mouth. Earlier today his mouth seemed to be open constantly. Now it is definitely closed, and he's occasionally bobbing to the surface of the water as he usually does. When I can get a look at his skin along hte sides and front, I see grey patches, and his belly coloring seems paler than usual. He's always had more dark streaks/splotches than Big Newt, and his eyes look to me about as they usually do.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

Forget about the salt baths, they could do more harm than good. This looks more like bloat to me, especially since it's been going on a few days already.

 

[dipsydoodle]

It's bloat!

I wouldn't say he's this big because he's shedding. Newts shed every week - 2 weeks (we just don't see it very often).

 

[Azhael]

Definitely bloat. It´s also a male.
Being that old, it´s possible that the bloating is a consequence of organ failure, in which case there is nothing you can do.
The conditions of the tank don´t look ideal...have they been exposed to high temps recently?

 

[epyllion]

The water was getting low this week, but I don't think there was an extreme shift of temperature. We use filtered water that we let sit out for a day or two before adding to the tank. We have the filter tipped over now to maximize its efficiency. We usually filter every once in a while for a few days at a time.

I know it's not an ideal set-up b/c we're using aquarium gravel. However, they had gravel in their tank when our friends gave them to us--and in the 1990s when we'd visit our friends, the newt tank was just about always coated in a layer of algal slime. (The advice we received in taking on the newts was not to keep the tank too clean--that they like it to be dirty.) We did change their tank environment completely back then (but that was back in 2002)--but we gave them a much bigger tank, kept some of the rocks they had before, added stones and a piece of wood which they have had for a long time now. We'll get in there every few months or so to scrape the algae off the tank (putting the newts in a little travel tank while doing so).

It's an established tank environment even though it's not ideal. Little Newt is standing on a slap of sandstone in the picture. This morning he's in the same place I left him late last night, and I think he looks about the same--no larger, but I don't think any smaller either. Had I better quarantine him--or just let him be? I figure if it's bacterial or viral, Big Newt has already been exposed to whatever Little Newt has. I sure hope it's not irreversible organ failure.

 

[Azhael]

What has been the temperature of the water, as of late?
Although gravel is indeed the source of some problems, my main concern is the water volume. It appears from the photos that the water is pretty shallow. A reduced water volume is a problem. It makes maintaining the parametres very difficult (a fact worsened by the use of gravel). Ammonia, nitrites, temps, pH, fluctuate much faster in a small volume of water.

These newts are 100% aquatic in captivity, although perhaps the odd individual may choose to rest on land for a while every once in a while, for which a piece of floating cork bark is more than enough (mine almost never go out of the water). Using all the volume of the tank (except the top 4-5cm) for water is excellent for the newts, and for you. Also, they simply LOVE hanging on dense masses of plants, so providing lots of natural plants is best. Plants have the great advantage of taking ammonia and nitrites from the water, and providing surface for the biofilm of bacteria. If properly used and in sufficient quantity, they will overtake the function of a filter. Since these newts are a still water species who apreciate totally calm waters, not using a filter is recommended. A strong current can in fact cause stress (which can lead to many problems).


Quarantine would be best. Do you know if the person who gave them to you bought them in a pet-shop? They do have a yellow belly which is typical of captive bred animals but could also be the result of a carotene deficient diet over all those years. Anyway, if they are petshop bought, then they are wild-caught which means they could be VERY VERY old. They´ve been in captivity for 30 years which is surreal, but they could be quite older.
If that´s the case, then it´s simply its time to go...it´s lived to a very old age and it´s body is probably giving up.

I love this species, it´s fascinating and incredibly beautiful and they are a joy to care for.

 

[epyllion]

Thank you for the tank advice!! We had not considered a primarily aquatic environment before (we've always known them in shallow conditions). We'll give them more and more water gradually this month.

Yeah, we've found (and our friends told us) that they don't seem to like it when the filter is running. We tend to use it to change the water conditions. I guess since they've been living like this for at least 30 years, we didn't want to change much! We'll try to take this slow. Since we have the tank space we'll definitely give them a lot more water, and in the long term try to establish some good plants! (I tried to put in water plants years ago, and they didn't survive--maybe b/c they needed more water!) I hope the little guy pulls through this.

 

[epyllion]

We've never actually monitored temperature in any more sophisticated way than sticking a finger in the water. The room *has* been warmer lately with the return of warm weather outside. That, combined with shallower water than usual, could have made for bad conditions. The temperature of the water in the tank is always cooler than the room, probably about 68 degrees at night and could get in the mid 70s during the day.

Our friend was given the larger of the two newts by his girlfriend in the late 1970s--so we don't know where he came from before that. (I was wrong in my original post when I said the Big Newt was purchased--he was not.) But Little Newt *was* bought in a pet shop in 1986. The Big (long lean) guy has always been more interactive with people...and the "little" (now bloated) one is more reclusive. They are amazingly resilient and wonderful--it's hard for me to believe the little guy might not recover! :-(

To reduce stress, do you think we should move the healthy Big Newt to a different tank, and leave Little Newt in his accustomed space?

Big Newt has been eating a lot, and I can't get Little Newt to eat at all.

 

[Azhael]

While this conditions persists, the newt won´t eat. It simply can´t.
I too hope he makes it, but then again, nature is nature, and a 30 year old newt (or older) is a VERY old newt indeed. On average, you can expect 15-20 years, so, you make an idea.

I´m not sure what to advice in terms of which newt to move. In one hand, change causes stress and might be too much for the poor bloated guy. On the other, if the cause of the problem arises from problems in the tank, maintaining him in it would be bad.

Personally, what i would do is to move the bloated one into a large (40l minimum so that the water volume provides stability) tupperware, previously conditioned. Using some water from the tank and adding some of the decoration would help make the transition a bit less stressing.

Don´t be afraid of changing their tank. Fill the tank an inch a day until it´s totally filled. Use treated or aged water, of course. For plants, i can recommend java fern (Microsorium sp.), java moss and Elodea. There are other plants that do well, but those are for me the basic trilogy. They do well with low light, although Elodea won´t thrive in constant shadow.

I would also recommend getting rid of the gravel, but now may not be the best time. If you do move the bloated guy out, then it would be ok. By changing the gravel for a thin (no more than an inch) layer of fine sand, you will prevent future problems.

 

[epyllion]

Thank you very much for the advice. We are cycling their old tank now, using some of the rocks in the original tank to transfer some bacteria colonies over. I think we're going to leave the bloated Little Newt in the original tank, having added a good deal more water, and move the healthy Big Newt to the other tank since he's probably more resilient and adaptable to change.

We have also moved them downstairs to a much cooler room in the house so the temp will be lower during the day. There's more water in the original tank now, and I see both newts are staying low and fully submerged in it. From all you've suggested and everything I'm reading, it seems like adding plants might be very good idea indeed--couldn't hurt anyway--and might make for happier conditions all around. I'd like to add some very soon.

 

[epyllion]

We sent a note to our old friend in Hawaii--the original owner of the newts. He just replied--and gave this report of the Little Newt:

"Hey, he used to blow himslef up like a balloon and then paddle around like a beach ball...not sure why."

So I wonder if he's been through something like this before!

 

[Azhael]

It´s certainly possible.
Although recovery from bloating is difficult, it´s possible that it suffered it previously and recovered.
There are a number of reasons which can cause bloating, although as i said i´m inclined to thinking in this case it´s just the effects of very old age (organs fail and homeostasis goes crazy, causing the bloat). It could perhaps be a congenital condition that has presented itself in other ocassions, who knows.

Well done in moving them to a cooler room, good decission.

I should say i don´t think there´s much you can do for the bloated guy treatment wise. Any treatment, even low concentration salt baths could have a negative effect in such an old delicate animal. Taking it to the vet would be the only option, but even that might be too much. Other than providing excellent care and conditions and hoping for the best, you can´t do much. Best of lucks, though, this one is obviously a fighter!

As for the healthy one, if you post a picture, we´ll tell you the sex if you want. I´m sure he/she is going to love the new tank. Lots of water and plants is all they want. Mine enjoy their very heavily planted tank (no such thing as too heavily planted, trust me xD).

 

[epyllion]

Here are some pictures I just took of the healthy Big Newt:

 

[Azhael]

It´s a female

 

[epyllion]

Really???!!! I'm incredulous, because I have never seen her lay any eggs... Wow! (How can you tell?)

 

[Azhael]

If the water has always been shallow, it may be the reason why they didn´t breed. Also, the lack of plants to deposit the eggs on is a crucial factor. Breeding occurs easily in this species if conditions are ideal (lots of adequate plants or egg-laying substitutes and space). If they are not, breeding simply supreses. Now, this is not necessarily unhealthy, so it´s not a big deal. If they have survived this long, it´s because they were obviously kept well enough, just maybe conditions could have been improved to an ideal status.
Now you have the chance to try the new arrangement, and i assure you, you won´t regret it

If the poor male doesn´t make it, i hope you find her a new mate. She obviously has good genes to have achieved such an old age. If you decide to do so, just stay away from pet-shop newts, they are all wild-caught which is awful on the poor animals and for the species. There are breeders in the US that will sell you healthy, captive bred animals.
Anyway it´s just a thought, though...i think it would be nice if such a resillient animal got to pass on its genes.


As for knowing the sex, it´s rather easy to tell despite some of the pictures being a bit unclear (sex wise). Females have narrow cloacas, granular skin, long tails, are generally bigger, and don´t develop colour changes during breeding time. Males have broad, inflated cloacas, shorter and taller tails, stronger hind legs, and develop a rather dramatic colour change when ready to breed (blue/grey/greenish/pink patches and dots on the tail).
You can see examples of what i´m talking about (a picture is worth a thousand words) here:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Cynops/C_pyrrhogaster.shtml

 

[epyllion]

Thank you SO much for this information and perspective! Yes, I can see from the pictures how the males are different-- We always wondered why the Big Newt had a much longer tail than the Little Newt, and that completely explains it! Her feet have smaller toes than his, too.

We'll see if the Little Guy pulls through this, and if he doesn't we will definitely find the Big Girl a new male consort through this site.

I have learned more in the past two days from joining this forum and talking to you than we have ever known of our mysterious old companions. I'm amazed!

On our way to the pet store to find some good plants--have my list with the trilogy of java fern, java moss, and Elodea handy. I'll keep you all posted--continuing this thread. Many, many thanks again.

 

[Azhael]

No problem I´m happy to help. I´ve only been keeping this species for over a year and they have already given me much joy. They are trully beautiful creatures.

It´s not your fault you didn´t know better earlier on. Information on caudates is scarce and there´s a lot of missinformation around. You obviously managed on yourselves well enough.
Now that you have the info, though, it´s time for a new experience with these newts xD I´m sure you´ll see an instant improvement as you introduce the changes. When these newts are kept in ideal conditions, they really thrive.

Oh, one question i have been meaning to ask, but forgot to, what is the volume of their tank?

 

[epyllion]

I was totally overestimating the volume of their current tank in my original post. It's maximum capacity is 10 gallons.

We're quarantining She-Newt in their old smaller tank, 5.5 gallons. We've put some plants in both tanks and have some nice test strips to check for nitrates and nitrites, chlorine, pH, alkalinity, and water hardness... So far everything looks good--including those plants!

Little (bloated male) newt immediately swam over to a plant in the corner of the big tank and is hanging out there with his feet around a branching leaf. I want to think he looks better, but I'm sure it's too soon to tell. I took a few more pictures and will post.