New tenants - P. brevipes

[paris]

i traded with a guy in illinios-but i am looking at getting a bunch from a supplier when my summer school money comes in (the 10th) the problem is he really doesnt know alot about them-he is sure they arent labiatum but he isnt sure if he has brevipes or pachy 'b's. he also sent me a picture (i am unsure if it is his or not) of some weird ones that come in occasionally that are grey with black blotches-very odd-im trying to make good contact with him so that he will set such stuff aside for me in the future.

 

[jesse]

nice, i wish i knew the supplier, so i could try and get me sometoo

 

[paris]

major bummer here -i found one dead today, pbrev3 i believe. i dont know why-it was in a tank with just one other brevipes (pbrev1-the really spotted one) -she had no bites or signs of injury...i dont know why she died.

 

[edward]

How long have you had them Paris?

Ed

 

[paris]

less than a month -they are from the same shipment as those that nate and dave nash have

 

[edward]

Hi Paris,
Depending on the feeding regimen and the temperature I would then not rule out refeeding syndrome.

Ed

 

[mike]

Hi Ed,
Refeeding syndrome???

 

[TJ]

I found a link to Ed's June 2002 article "Refeeding Syndrome" but the PDF download file doesn't work:

http://www.tiherp.org/herpetologists/library/sublibrary/TerrapinTales.html

I was also unfamiliar with the term "refeeding syndrome", though I was vaguely aware that severely malnourished sals shouldn't suddenly be given a lot to eat. Here's one explanation I happened across:

"It is possible to produce the condition known as refeeding syndrome if too much nutrition is provided too rapidly. In this situation, the body
that has been chronically deprived of nutrition becomes metabolically deranged when calories are suddenly provided."

Medical Issues Affecting the Rehabilitation of Asian Chelonians
By Charles Innis
Turtle and Tortoise Newsletter, Issue 4

Here's a more detailed explanation:

http://www.ccmtutorials.com/misc/phosphate/page_07.htm

I also found an old Froglog post in which Ed wrote that newly imported Bolitoglossa mexicana salamanders should initially be fed small easily digested meals frequently as "many of the salamanders do not have fat pads and may be very susceptible to refeeding syndrome".

Maybe Ed can shed some more light on this syndrome as it pertains to sals

 

[edward]

Hi All,
Here is a short explanation.
Refeeding syndrome occurs when the animal has been starved to the point that in order to maintain sufficient ion concentrations in the blood the ions are maintained at the expense of the cells (by being exported from inside the cells). If fed a fair to large sized meal the influx of calories and other nutrients are suddenly transported into the cells using the ions in the blood volume. This causes the animal to crash and die very rapidly. If you aquire a thin animal often the worse thing you can initially do for it would be to feed it a large meal. Ideally you should feed about 10% of the estimated caloric intake to the animal for at least several days and probably for a couple of weeks. After that point the amount of food should be slowly increased until it is being fed a "normal" amount.
This is typically seen with newly imported animals after their first large meal.

Ed

 

[paris]

ed,
to look at them (in the pictures/real life) they do not look under fed and the guy said they had been with him for a while. on the topic of the syndrome though- i thought immediate feeding (even forced) was the solution to those newts that get bloat from not eating (like taricha torosa sierra are prone to) when you are talking about this syndrome -is this for thin newts or ones with the bloat? i am under the impression that the bloat is alot like quashioracor(sp?) in humans-which results from low protein diets and gives the bloated belly to undernourished, yet the limbs (and importantly neck - to differentiate it from a bacterial infection)are thin. these guys have been shy about food- i do know i gave some (like 4) crickets to one tank to see if theyd eat it but i dont remember which tank. what food do you recommend that is easily digested? how does this fit in with required force feeding of thin/weak newts (that are probably feeling bad too from surges of bad flora in the gut from the stress of being sick)? since caudates can live off of very low calories how does one calculate their caloric needs?

 

[edward]

Hi Paris,
Animals in the end stages of starvation (bloating) would be at very great risk of this problem. If I remember correctly the one you are referring to for people is due to a lack of protien in the diet and the resulting amino acid deficiencies. However this does not mean that animals that are not in the end stages are not at risk as this can depend on the physiological condition of the animal. I recently recieved a shipment of Atelopus spumarius for at home. I seperated them out into the quarantine enclosures and fed a small meal. THe females being larger were able to push most of the males aside and get the lion share of the food. I lost two females that night. On necropsy not only did they have no fat pads the females were in the early stages of ovulation, this pushed them over the threshold. I lost most of the females in a 48 hour period and the results on necropsy were all the same. In the reference to the B. dolflini Tim made above, the salamanders come into the country sans fat pads or other reserves and have begun to catalyze the muscle tissue to survive. When fed a large meal the animal goes into shock drops the tail and dies. Even animals we had for over 4 weeks would do this and on necropsy would still have no fat pads. After that point we went to feeding very small meals (@10% of the diet) and doing it daily for about a month. If we got them past 2 months they would be fine. When tube feeding you would need to know the kcal/unit of the item you were going to tube feed and then calculate out the basal metabolic rate of the animal at the temperature it is housed and then calculate out the correct amount to feed it. I tend to use earthworms (as they are very easy to digest and are not super high calorie*)(see below for the comparision to the commercially available crickets) for thin caudates as I can cut into sections and feed with tweezers to control who gets what. With this sort of feeding you can eyeball it and offer a small piece of worm the first several days, and then a slightly larger piece of worm and so on.

Ed

* When corrected for indigestiable material crickets (Achetae domesticus) as fed have 1.9 kcal/gram and when measured as dry matter 4.8 kcal/gram. Earthworms (Lumbricus terrestris) as fed have 0.5 kcal/gram and as dry matter 3.1 kcal/gram.