Need help cycling

[larn]

Hi

I have a bit of a dilema, I have a large tank which i am trying to prepare for my 3 axolotls, but i have no way of testing the water apart from a trip to the local pet shop.

I thought i should use the media from my other aquarium to seed it, however the problem is since i am new to keeping fish as well as axolotls the fish aquarium had high levels of ammonia (and the rest) one of my fish recently died, so the media that i transfered to the new tank probably didn't have any friendly bacteria.

From what i understand about cycling a fishless tank is that a source of ammonia is requried and to let the filter run for a few weeks to start the cycle. But does that mean the bacteria will grow it'self?

Before i realized i had bad water in my aquarium I had put some substrate, rocks, plants and squeezed the filter and put this dirty looking water in there, but i am confused because i did that 3 days ago and when i went to the shop they told me the level of ammonia was 0 nitite 0 and nitrate was high? i was exspecting levels of ammonia, so i don't know if the tank is cycling or there was not enough ammonia. From what i have read it should take a long time..

I hope this makes sense, i am new to this so i am a bit confused. i am embarrased to say i can't afford £20 to get a test kit probably for another week. The pet shop also told me that it's pointless testing weekly because it's not accurate enough.

i am open to suggestionsand advice thanks

Larn

 

[MereB]

Re: Need help cylcing

Tricky one but do-able :happy:

A few questions though to clarify the time line
How long was the filter you transferred to the new tank running on the old one?
How old is your fish tank?
How long after you squeezed the filter out did your fish die and you had the water tested when you got the high ammonia results in the fish tank?

When you squeezed out the filter media you will have displaced a lot of the bacteria from our filter so when you placed the sponge back into the filter it was missing a lot of the bacteria that had been there working away. THIS will probably have thrown your fish tank back into a cycle which would account for the high levels of ammonia and nitrite within the previously cycled tank.

From the readings alone on the new tank it looks to be cycled and it's possible it is given you added an already used filter, some decorations from the old tank AND the rinse water that contained all the dislodged bacteria from the media.
Do you know if there is any Nitrate in your water source? If there is it may account for the Nitrate being so high at such an early stage.
I've used the method you did before and it only took 4-5 days for a brand new filter to cycle so it is possible.
I'd still watch it fairly closely though and what the shop guy said about it being pointless testing weekly and the tests not being accurate enough is a load of bull :angry:

That said a cycled tank and filter in particular has a very distinct smell. Sort of like the floor of a rainforrest. It's a very earthy and wet smell but it's not offensive and that's what you want it to smell like when it's cycled. You won't get it before it's done so it's a pretty good indicator that you're ready to go in the absence of a test kit.

You're right that in a fishless cycle you will need an ammonia source, fish food is a popular choice, to replace the ammonia that the fish would have added to the system. The bacteria are present already in very small numbers and given food (ammonia) and a place to live they will multiply.

There is no guarantee that it was the ammonia that killed the fish but it is quite likely, particularly if it was showing odd behaviors like swimming at the surface and gulping for air or laying on the bottom or could even have had red streaks on it's fins/body.

 

[dragonlady]

Re: Need help cylcing

Hi there, cycling can be a long, frustrating process. To do it properly, you really need to have the test kits on hand to keep track of the spikes. You will want these test kits to keep your tank monitored in the future as well. Ammonia is not going to give off a smell if it's too high for your axolotl, so no offense to MereB but I think that kits will be your better way to go.

Here is an article discussing the nitrogen cycle and may give you a good picture of how everything works. Cycling

 

[caseeybrown]

Re: Need help cylcing

Thats interesting about the smell of a cycled tank, i alwats thought it was bad that my mums tropical tank smelled a little fousty like you described!

Larn, maybe you could try ebay, im sure theyd have some cheaper kits?

 

[larn]

Re: Need help cylcing

Hi guys, thanks for the replys


MereB:

1.The filter had been running on the old tank for about 3 weeks,

2.i have had the old fish tank for about 2 months

3. the female fighter fish died 24 hours after i removed the filter, but she had displayed strange behavier before, not eating, not moving around so much. so it might not of been anything to do with the water, could of been natural. (or maybe by removing the filter it made her condition worse and she died)
4. The high levels of ammonia were recorded a while after i had removed the filter and other media


The fish shop i think know i have been going there a few times with water samples, i have been there 3 times in the last month, so maybe they are trying to stop me from coming too regulary .

The tank doesn't really have any smell, just ordourless i think... but my sense of smell isn't great. it would be nice if the tank was already on it's way to be cycled but i have a strange feeling it isn't

I don't want to risk putting the axolotls in there until i know for sure, so i will have to buy the test kit on friday when i get paid.

another quick question while i am here, i recently bought some food for them, krill pacifica, but they didn't eat it, the guy in the fish store said they will like it but they have'nt even touched it

 

[MereB]

Re: Need help cylcing

Ammonia is not going to give off a smell if it's too high for your axolotl, so no offense to MereB but I think that kits will be your better way to go.

Here is an article discussing the nitrogen cycle and may give you a good picture of how everything works. Cycling

No offense taken :happy: but I never said ammonia gave off a smell I said a CYCLED tank gave off a smell and in the absence of a test kit that was the best indicator and as we all know a cycled tank probably won't have any ammonia.
Absolutely test kits are the way to go and an absolute must and I'm sure the original poster will purchase some as soon as they have the cash.... Friday as it happens.

That smell is a good thing Casey but if it ever changes and becomes offensive or overpowering it's not so great and could signal the presence of other bugs such as the ones responsible for the plethora of slimes we know as bluegreen algae which, deceptively, is not always blue green and is not actually an algae

Larn. It sounds like your fighter may not have been well and the stress of a cycling tank from removing the filter may have tipped it over the edge such a shame really as they are such beautiful little fish but we live and learn and I'm sure you won't do that one again :happy:

Your filter after 3 weeks should have quite a bit of bacteria within it and would certainly have given you a little head start on cycling the new tank but the absence of the rain forest smell would lead me to believe that it is only just beginning it's cycle, fresh new tanks don't really smell at all, and the nitrate present is from another source and not the product of the breakdown of ammonia in the new tank so don't go adding your axie just yet especially not until you have a test kit that you can carefully monitor your water chemistry with.
I've cycled more tanks than I care to think about and I still wouldn't add anything I was attached to or valued without daily or twice daily tests. I rarely loose a sacrificial guppy these days but I still wouldn't risk it.

Wish I could comment on the food but it's not something I've ever come across That said it can take several attempts to introduce a new food before an axie will even see it as food so don't give up just yet and make sure you keep offering the foods he will eat and before I get flamed for not saying it a staple diet of earthworms is best for your little friend and failing that axolotl/salmon pellets are a good 2nd choice leaving other foods as treats.

 

[dragonlady]

Re: Need help cylcing

Oh no, MereB, I was simply cautioning not to rely solely on the smell of a tank. Sorry for the confusion... Also, it should be noted that the use of some dechlorinators can alter the smell of a tank too.

As far as the food, Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but krill is a saltwater organism, right? If so, then no, not suitable for axolotls. Axolotls are freshwater and with the exception of baby brine shrimp being used for larvae, saltwater organisms should be avoided.

Nightcrawlers, frozen bloodworms, blackworms, freshwater shrimp/scuds, and sinking salmon pellets are all decent suggestions with nightcrawlers/earthworms topping the list.

Unfortunately, most pet shops/fish shops don't know a lot about axolotls and tend to treat them like fish.

 

[larn]

I really need that test kit, i found one on ebay which is really cheap compared to the local shop would this be what i need? NUTRAFIN MINI MASTER AQUARIUM FISH TANK WATER TEST KIT on eBay (end time 12-Apr-11 20:36:59 BST)


I have been giving them bloodworms, but i wanted to give them a change, i know blackworms have good nutrition as well as earthworms, but i have not found these in the shops. i think earthworms are too big for them at the moment , maybe i could cut them into small pieces but i feel sorry for the worm..so maybe i would not find that easy

thanks allot for your help mereB, next time i will be more careful if my fish get sick, probably should of taken her out and tried to cure her

 

[MereB]

Looks good to me larn.

We learn best from our mistakes :happy: we've all made plenty of them and we are wiser for them.

I can't bring myself to cut up worms either so don't feel bad about that once my babies get past baby brine shrimp they eat black and blood worms and chopped pellets until they are big enough for little earth worms. I just can't do it, I hear them screaming in my head when I try. :rofl:

 

[larn]

haha yeah.. it's a bit gross, i might look into those salmon pellets sounds easier

 

[larn]

I have the test kit now, i just wanted to ask another question about cycling...

Do i have to raise the temperature for this process? or can i keep the water cold at room temp?

I only have one heater which is in use, so i would have to buy one seems like a waste of money since i won't need it later

 

[MereB]

YAY the kit will take the guess work out of it for you :happy:

The bacteria reproduce fastest, doubling once every 17 hours or so, at about 25 degrees C (77F) but you don't need to have your tank at that temperature for it to cycle. The bacteria will grow quite happily at lower temperatures it will just take them a little longer to do it :happy: so yeah it would be a waste of money to buy another heater just to cycle a tank.

 

[larn]

yeah the tests are a great tool, really much better having the results to note down

i just feel sorry for the axolotls because they look a bit bored in their tubs , they will just have to hang on a bit longer. thanks for the help

 

[MereB]

You're welcome.
I'm sure that being in the tubs that bit longer will make them appreciate the care you have taken with their home that much more

 

[larn]

So i have been cylcing the new tank for about 2 weeks, i added more fish food to increase the level of ammonia a week ago. My tests show the ammonia is 0 nitrite 0.6 and nitrate 40. the nitrite has been at 0.6 for about 3 or 4 days.

It would seem that the bacteria i had seeded has speeded things up, but i'm not sure why the nitrite won't budge from 0.6.

what do i do now? should i remove the water and put more fresh water in? or wait a bit longer?

 

[MereB]

To answer your question about the nitrite it would appear you have sufficient bacteria present to dispose of the ammonia you are adding but not enough yet to convert all the nitrite that is being produced. You do however have some of the nitrite converting bacteria present as your Nitrate is rising just not enough of them yet to cope with it all.
That will quickly change though.

You'll need to do a water change, 20% of the total water you have should be plenty, as your nitrate is at the maximum safe level and the water change will bring it down again for you. The Nitrite is also above maximum safe levels but if the tank is empty it's not a huge drama.

Keep adding your ammonia source to feed the ammonia converting bacteria so they don't starve while you wait for your nitrite converting bacteria to finish getting established. When you see ammonia and nitrite staying at 0 even with the addition of your ammonia source and Nitrate is rising you will be cycled.

Keep an eye on your levels and change some water as you need to but you're almost there now.

 

[larn]

thanks for helping me again, if i think of anymore questions i will post back. cheers

 

[larn]

I tested the water a few days ago and i discovered the ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 40 so i thought maybe it was ready!

I have another small tank which i am cycling for my fish, so i thought maybe i can use the media i had put in the big tank to transfer the bacteria to speed things up. i had 2 stockings filled with subtrate and fishfood, i moved them to the smaller tank. (i only used fishfood to do the cycle)

I then replaced 90% of the water in the cycled tank and waited 2 days for the chlorine to evaporate. I was all ready to put the axolotls into their new home, but i thought i had better test the water a final time. The reading was ammonia 0 nitrite 1.6! so i don't understand what happened.

I thought maybe because i had moved those stockings maybe i had moved too much of the bacteria and so i have now put them back in. today i tested and the reading is about the same.

I think i need to buy some ammonia from somewhere, any advice is welcome

 

[carsona246]

Are you dosing with pure ammonia? If you are make sure the ammonia isn't cleaning ammonia, and has no soap or detergents in it.

 

[larn]

I haven't used any ammonia yet, been just using fish food.

So what kind of ammonia is it exactly? and where can i buy it? (in UK)