My setup... am I on the right track?

[Kaysie]

Just know this will take a couple weeks. Keep your filter running while you're doing it. Usually cycling takes around 6 weeks.

 

[mekkha]

I'll try and be patient

I just tried my filter and holy cow it's pretty loud. Also the water flow is WAY too intense, so I'm going to fix that. Might just go get another filter all together, I hear top fins aren't really the best anyways.... It came with the kit.

 

[SwissAxie]

So where does the initial ammonia come from? You need an ammonia source (continuous) to feed the bacteria. You have to put SOMETHING in the tank, be it 'canned' bacteria (which are dead, and therefore provide ammonia), or a piece of flesh, or some fish.


How do you figure that? The bacteria you're trying to grow live on the tank, in the filter, on the decorations, but are not free-floating in the water. As long as you have a continual source of ammonia, there's no harm in changing the water. I've cycled dozens of tanks with salamanders in them. Not changing the water for 6-8 weeks 1.) smells TERRIBLE, and 2.) is a death sentence for anything in the tank. It takes a little longer to cycle, but there's absolutely no harm in it. ..

Hey Kaysie,

Well, I have cycled my frist tank without adding anything and it did cycle. So how do you figure that ?
Ever since, I have always used old filter mousse for new tanks, so I never have to (at least not completely) cycle any tank anymore. I have 15 tanks... and I have never lost any fish or amphibian or other animal to nitrite or ammonia levels.

Cycling a tank with salamanders ? What salamanders ? They usually do not live in the water and they breathe on the surface and not in the water. So of course they do not get affected by ammonia and nitrite levels that kill fish or may kill other aquatic animals that breathe though gills. Axolotls are a little more solid than fish and can deal with nitrites up to 0.5. Above that, you're running into problems with axos, too.

I know that the bacteria are in the substrate, the filter, the decorations, the plants etc. But at the beginning, they are not there yet, but need to build up first. They build up on feeding on ammonia and nitrites, as you do know. So, if while cycling the tank, you keep changing the water, you keep taking off their source of food (e.g ammonia and nitrites). So each time you change the water during the cycling, you slow down the bacterial development by starving them or at least not providing enough food for them to grow and multiply. You will eventually have your tank cycled, but it will take considerably more time. Cycling a tank with an animal or animals in them is a game for experienced aquarians not for beginners, since it's playing with fire trying to keep everyone safe, while playing around with a fragile equilibrium. Particularly in small tanks that can turn bad very quickly.

 

[Kaysie]

An axolotl is a salamander.

 

[Azhael]

Without a source of ammonia there can be no cycling. Bare in mind that anything of an organic nature can be decomposed and produce ammonia, since it will contain proteins. It needn´t be animal, plants, fungae, or any other organic thing will do.
And axolotls are most definitely salamanders xD
Even, metamorphosed individuals are affected by ammonia and nitrites since caudate skin is very permeable. Your assumption that animals with gills are more affected is erroneus, and in fact most fish are rather more isolated from the water than amphibians are.

 

[Kaysie]

Terrestrial salamanders can be just as susceptible to ammonia levels. This is why you should change terrestrial substrates every 3-6 months.

 

[Azhael]

True, and offer good ventilation. Ammonia levels are one of the biggest problems of simple terrestrial housing methods such as paper towels.

 

[SwissAxie]

An axolotl is a salamander.

I know that kaysie
But when you talk about samanders in an axolotl forum, I am inclined to think that you're talking about another animal and not an axie.

 

[SwissAxie]

Without a source of ammonia there can be no cycling. Bare in mind that anything of an organic nature can be decomposed and produce ammonia, since it will contain proteins. It needn´t be animal, plants, fungae, or any other organic thing will do.
And axolotls are most definitely salamanders xD
Even, metamorphosed individuals are affected by ammonia and nitrites since caudate skin is very permeable. Your assumption that animals with gills are more affected is erroneus, and in fact most fish are rather more isolated from the water than amphibians are.

Again, I know an axolotl is a salamander. The species ambystoma are all salamanders. But the difference between an axolotl and any other salamander that does go through metamorphosis is that HE can get OUT of the water. An axolotl cannot or he will die anyway.

As for the isolation of fish against axolotl in the water : try to make fish survive in a tank that has a nitrite level of 0.5 or more. Then try with an axolotl. And then tell me who survived

 

[SwissAxie]

I'd never keep any ambystoma or whatever other animal on household paper. Who does that anyway ?
My ambystoma mavortium live on real dirt, real moss, real leaves and real wood.
My Lampropeltis getulus californicae lives on real sand, with real plants and real wood.
My bombina orientalis live on real moss with real sand on the bottom of the water part... I don't think any terrestrial animal lives on paper in any natural environment. Do you ?

 

[morphyrichards]

I'd never keep any ambystoma or whatever other animal on household paper. Who does that anyway ?
My ambystoma mavortium live on real dirt, real moss, real leaves and real wood.
My Lampropeltis getulus californicae lives on real sand, with real plants and real wood.
My bombina orientalis live on real moss with real sand on the bottom of the water part... I don't think any terrestrial animal lives on paper in any natural environment. Do you ?

You seem more interested in playing a game of oneupmanship - the people who you are (seeming to be trying to) getting one over on with are experienced (as I am sure you are) and respected people who I have learned a lot from and in some way your posts seem unneccessarily disprespectful.

Some of your other posts just seem argumentative for arguments sake, and putting a smiley at the end of everyting doesnt stop me feeling vaguely unhappy.

Obviously this is a discussion forum and we have differing opinions, and that's what makes this such an interesting and successful forum but please think about (1) the tone you are using when replying to people (2) whether you are making a valid point or just making a point for the sake of making a point.

I dont keep land based caudates but I have heard of using paper towels as a simple substrate before from a number of sources. It doesnt take much of a stretch of the imagination to see why it could be useful to do so in a pinch.
I feel vaguely uneasy when I read statements like "And then tell me who survived ", "I know that kaysie ", "I don't think any terrestrial animal lives on paper in any natural environment. Do you ? " etc. They seem almost to be loaded personal statements in the context that you have used them in. This may not be intentional but nevertheless does make for uneasy reading.

There are a lot of threads where people have had differing viewpoints and discussed them rationally, I suggest you read a few of them, just to get an idea of how language can be used in a forum in a constructive way.

Thanks
Steve

 

[Azhael]

Of course no animal lives on paper towels in the wild, none of them live between glass plates either.
One could argue that many caudates live on substrates that are, in essence, celulose, so it´s not that huge a stretch xD
The thing is, paper towels as substrate are a very handy, very practical, albeit artifitial material for many occassions, particularly for raising juveniles of small species. It´s not more unnatural to keep some Cynops metamorphs on paper towels than it is to keep an axolotl in a tank, with a filter and clean water (which is not their kind of habitat -still, murky waters-).
Also, just because you use natural materials it doesn´t make the habitat of your animals natural. It makes it natural-looking, which is nice (and i´m all for it when adequate), but optional. There is much more about captive husbandry than just looks.
I should also mention that Ambystoma is not a species, but a genus.

Anyway, i think we all agree that our purpose as users of this forum is to receive and provide good information, and have healthy discussions when the opportunity arises (because it´s just fun xD). To loose that principle because of some pointless competition between users is hardly benefitial.

 

[SwissAxie]

Steve, Azhael,

I apologize for my somewhat ironic responses. But when Kaysie told me an axolotl is a salamander, I felt taken for an idiot. That's all. No need for you Azhael to double her statement.
That's why I reacted the way I did. I am ok with comments on how I write and what, but jsut like you, I don't like that tone.
Moreover, I am not an excessive user of smileys at all. So I am certainly not a persone who puts smileys everywhere as you prentend.

 

[twistedfisher]

i was going to remain quiet on this one but i just gotta open my mouth now!

There is also a thing called a silent cycle where as you put some live plants from an establish aquarium in the new tank and BOOM instant cycled!

I do this all the time when i set up a new fish tank here in my fish room when i do not have a precycled filter ready for a new tank.

I often even take a large hand full of java moss and wring it out like a towel into a new tank to seed it with bacteria to create an instantly cycled tank.

 

[morphyrichards]

i was going to remain quiet on this one but i just gotta open my mouth now!

There is also a thing called a silent cycle where as you put some live plants from an establish aquarium in the new tank and BOOM instant cycled!

I do this all the time when i set up a new fish tank here in my fish room when i do not have a precycled filter ready for a new tank.

I often even take a large hand full of java moss and wring it out like a towel into a new tank to seed it with bacteria to create an instantly cycled tank.

Very cool! Thanks!

Just had to google that ... so it seems to work if your making something which is fairly densely planted with plants from an established tank.

 

[mekkha]

i was going to remain quiet on this one but i just gotta open my mouth now!

There is also a thing called a silent cycle where as you put some live plants from an establish aquarium in the new tank and BOOM instant cycled!

I do this all the time when i set up a new fish tank here in my fish room when i do not have a precycled filter ready for a new tank.

I often even take a large hand full of java moss and wring it out like a towel into a new tank to seed it with bacteria to create an instantly cycled tank.

Very good to know thanks! I'm on day two of my cycling (come on ammonia, rise darn you!) and I'm going to try and be patient but if for whatever reason it doesn't seem to work I may try this method.

 

[morphyrichards]

i was going to remain quiet on this one but i just gotta open my mouth now!.

You should definitely do less of the remaining quiet bit and more of the opening your mouth thing!