Metamorphosed Axolotls-ethical questions

[Mark]

If the mortality rate was high traders wouldn't bother importing them. I don't buy the invasive species argument either. Tiger salamanders were far more popular 10 years ago and we've not seen any problems with naturalized populations. I don't think you should try justifying the ethics of forced metamorphosis by seeing it as a solution to problems that don't exist. There is no discernible conservation value or threat of naturalization. If you wanted to help tiger sals you'd be better off getting involved in habitat conservation or lobbying the bait industry. For me the questions should be does it impact on the longterm welfare of the axolot? Is longevity reduced significantly?

There's nothing wrong with just doing it for novelty if that's the only reason you have. Novelty sells. I don't know enough about the science of forcing an obligate neotene to metamorphose so I have nothing really to add in terms of longterm animal health or if this is ethically sound.

 

[oceanblue]

Personally, I wouldn't do it because :

1)It takes knowledge and skill to morp an axolotl.
2)There's no benefit in it.
3)You're basicly playing with an alive animal
(When it isn't necesary for the animal's health,
I personally would never interfere with nature.)
4)An axolotl was also initialy wild caught too.

If you think, I'm wrong please tell me.

I acknowledge your view that this is unneccesary interference with the nature of the animal, but as far as amphibians go all axolotls in the pet and laboratory trade are about as captive bred as it is possible to be.

The majority of the stock genetics daties back to the 19th century. Buying one or more, morphed or not will not impact in any way on the wild axolotl, neither will it save it from extinction as the animals in the trade are shadows of the native stock.

 

[oceanblue]

If the mortality rate was high traders wouldn't bother importing them. I don't buy the invasive species argument either. Tiger salamanders were far more popular 10 years ago and we've not seen any problems with naturalized populations. I don't think you should try justifying the ethics of forced metamorphosis by seeing it as a solution to problems that don't exist. There is no discernible conservation value or threat of naturalization. If you wanted to help tiger sals you'd be better off getting involved in habitat conservation or lobbying the bait industry. For me the questions should be does it impact on the longterm welfare of the axolot? Is longevity reduced significantly?

There's nothing wrong with just doing it for novelty if that's the only reason you have. Novelty sells. I don't know enough about the science of forcing an obligate neotene to metamorphose so I have nothing really to add in terms of longterm animal health or if this is ethically sound.

I appreciate these points: I think that concentrating thoughts on what is ethical on the individual axolotl rather than if you are somehow reforming the world is sensible. I have not been able to find solid data on the long term welfare impact of the sort resembling a proper medical clinical trial, it is all individual data with a lot about what does not work well.

Personally I'd like follow up and feedback, but I wonder what would be regarded as an acceptable death rate. Any ideas on the life expectancy of unmorphed axolotls in the hands of reasonably competent carers? I know they can last 15 years but if kept at 20C+ their life is often nearer to 6 years.

What happened to the tigers of 10 years ago? The species record is 15 years, not much less than axolotl, Have they really a low import death rate and subsequent long life?

If I do try to set up feedback and obtain survival figures how do I find out if these animals are healthier or weaker than imported tigers or even ordinary axolotls. They are not going to be subject to death by ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

 

[James Gordon]

Hi,
That's really interesting. What hormone are you using? I know that thyroxine has been used.

 

[oceanblue]

Hi,
That's really interesting. What hormone are you using? I know that thyroxine has been used.

I don't want to be drawn into making this thread a guide to how to morph axolotls. I did research and closely followed a published successful protocol.

 

[jimmy1]

Well the only option in Australia for anyone who want's a salamander is a morphed axolotl, as we don't allow any other salamanders into the country. So I suppose, location wise, the artificial morphing of axolotl's could be justified. We don't have tiger salamanders here.

So just because you cant have them in australia its justified?
There are already lots of different colors, there are breeding lines of axies
Without eyes and axies that glow in the dark.
And now people are morphing them,i wonder what the death rare is?
It seems like axolots are the new labrats for amphibienkeepers.

 

[oceanblue]

So just because you cant have them in australia its justified?
There are already lots of different colors, there are breeding lines of axies
Without eyes and axies that glow in the dark.
And now people are morphing them,i wonder what the death rare is?
It seems like axolots are the new labrats for amphibienkeepers.

The laboratory axolotl dates from the late 1800's probably about 50 years after the first laboratory rat. The axolotl pet trade has grown from and been supplied by the laboratory keeping of these animals.
Axolotls have been used for many experiments in embryology, development and genetics, many mutations being identified and helping the understanding of genetics in the late 19th and early 20th century and they are stiil being studied for understanding of gene induction and how development occurs.

The eyeless mutation gave some insight into the development of the brain and eyes which may ultimately lead to stem cell treatments for degenerative blindness.

The albino mutation was deliberately introduced into axolotls from an albino tiger salamander to aid embryology studies and the GFP axolotl was created for the same end.

The Melanoid axolotl originates from a scientific university sponsored collection trip and has led to an understanding of pigment and purine metabolsm.

Scientists have been metamorphosing axolotls for over 90 years, there is no excuse for making a botch of it or using methods which are cruel.

I'm convinced the death rate during metamorphosis is very low if the person doing it knows what he is doing, long term survival takes a long time to assess and as far as I can see no one has published figures.
I would welcome such figures, either published or in confidence by PM. I would also welcome honest figures of real life non-metamorphosed axolotl survival in the hands of the public. I suspect it is not very good which is why some people question the appropriateness of axolotls as a pet.

The metamorphosed mexicanum I am responsible for can be seen in this thread-
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...eneral-discussion/91260-morphed-axolotls.html

 

[otolith]

While I don't have any ethical issues with your goals, I do feel it is a bit misguided to use Tigers as a justification for the whole enterprise. If mitigating damage to wild populations is the "goal" I would think it might be better achieved by focusing attention to a captive breeding Tiger program and introducing more CB tigers to the market. I feel like this might be an excellent use of your very obvious caudate knowledge and skill and given the recent success in Europe with CB tigers seems well within the realm of possibility.

If you want to sell morphed Axolotls thats fine, and I have no doubt that you could sell them; however I have issues with the "moral high ground" for doing so. I feel like you might just be introducing a new product to an already murky market.

 

[oceanblue]

While I don't have any ethical issues with your goals, I do feel it is a bit misguided to use Tigers as a justification for the whole enterprise. If mitigating damage to wild populations is the "goal" I would think it might be better achieved by focusing attention to a captive breeding Tiger program and introducing more CB tigers to the market. I feel like this might be an excellent use of your very obvious caudate knowledge and skill and given the recent success in Europe with CB tigers seems well within the realm of possibility.

If you want to sell morphed Axolotls thats fine, and I have no doubt that you could sell them; however I have issues with the "moral high ground" for doing so. I feel like you might just be introducing a new product to an already murky market.

I set up the thread because I wanted to sort out ideas, not necessarily take a "moral high ground" and I think I accepted the point about tigers in post 25 and agree ethics should be focused on the individual animal.

Reputation scores can be deceptive, my "obvious caudate knowledge and skill" is actually vey narrow, the reputation has been achieved by having the sense to let others answer threads when I know I haven't a clue.

I have a great deal of knowledge of human and animal thyroid function having trained as a pathologist in an area of the UK in a unit with an international reputation for thyroid research. My knowledge of tiger salamander breeding is mainly based on what I have read in this forum, I've not kept one, let alone bred one so their captive breeding is best progressed by others.

I feel metamorphosed mexicanum shape up as pets in a similar way to aquatic axolotls, they are captive bred and not depleting a wild population. If people buy them rather than tigers then good, rather than other wild collected species under threat better.

I sometimes think the entire pet trade is a murky market.

 

[kroezen]

I don't know much about metamorphed axolotls, so my opinion may not be very valid in this discussion. I would, none-the-less, like to share anyway.
I personally can't see the value in a metamorphed axolotl, regardless of how it happened (mind you I don't like the idea of having a terrestrial salamander). Though I suppose if it's done propperly there shouldn't be a problem.
Though, like stated by others, if it's possible to get wild caught tiger salamanders or even captive bred ones, then get them instead rather than forcing an axolotl to change. I can understand wanting a terrestrial axolotl if you live in austrailia as no others are available.

All in all, so long as it doesn't harm the axolotl, go for it.