Illness/Sickness: Large rock in belly!

[Otterwoman]

Wow, I just saw this thread and I am so impressed that you had the nerve to do that and were successful! I really admire that! Did you do anything special with that rock? Certainly quite a souvenir.

 

[kuphie]

I still have the rock... it's been over a month now and i can't bring myself to throw it away. Any ideas on what i could do with it?

 

[harliquinnraver]

I still have the rock... it's been over a month now and i can't bring myself to throw it away. Any ideas on what i could do with it?

you could carefully drill a hole in it and string it onto a necklace!

 

[CherryBlossom]

you could carefully drill a hole in it and string it onto a necklace!

I agree.

What a story! glad shes doing good now!!

 

[Otterwoman]

I would do anything with that rock! Put it on a shelf, put it in my jewelry box, just keeping it. But I like that necklace idea!
A little larger and you could use it for a paperweight!

 

[kuphie]

i love the idea of a necklace

 

[harliquinnraver]

woohoo! youll have to post a pic when its done. id love to see!

 

[Kuzzbunch]

Asking $400 is just... Pure ripp-off.
I think it would cost $75 or so over here, done by a very qualified vet.

Good to hear you could fix it yourself! Best luck to your stone-eater!

 

[Crysta]

well done with you "surgery" I know what you mean about the price, money is scarce and I'm sure we all spoil our little ones with pretty tanks and such.

I hope all of the best for your axie, it's a truely eye opening story. I think it's sand, hand size rocks or bare tanks for everyone now xD

 

[John]

Megan asked me to look at this thread, saying "It will settle the substrate argument once and for all". I don't know about that. Frankly, both Shamrock and Megan have had a huge amount of luck, in my opinion. How you managed to get the pebble out without causing internal damage to her is a minor miracle. I think there needs to be a large disclaimer on this thread for anyone thinking of trying to same approach, indicating that it is a dangerous, last resort.

Some points I'd like to address:

While the axie isn't showing any ill effects right now, this will change. This rock will shift and it will cause a fatal blockage, that is inevitable.

Absolutes like that are uncalled for - there is no way you can "know" a fatal blockage is inevitable. I am always a little frustrated when people make statements like that.

so if your wondering exactly what i did. I just pushed the rock up to her chest area (like she was a tube of toothpaste) and kept it there while i used the forceps to open the mouth and throat a little. then she started to gag and vomit, pushing the rock out of her stomach and into the throat just enough for me to see it and grab it with my forceps. total time took me about 5min or less. most of which she was completely under water.

As I said, it is a minor miracle that you didn't cause significant internal damage to your pet. As you can see on the X-Ray, axolotls have very little "bone" in their skeletons - in effect you are squeezing a big bag of blood and organs around a pebble. You are so lucky the axolotl didn't die afterward.

So no, I don't think this settles the substrate argument once and for all. All it does is reinforce the point of using large pebbles (larger than this one obviously), sand, or no substrate. But we knew that already.

 

[oceanblue]

I too am worried by this thread. A vet would use an anaesthetic before attempting to remove a stone. My view is that feeding small pieces of food and refrigeration in the hope of getting the stone regurgitated and/or food around the stone is one thing but this sort of manipulation without anaesthetic may constitute animal cruelty.

Vet's bills reflect their skill, training and time, not the cost of the animal. They have access to appropriate anaesthetic solutions and while economic costs do figure in treatment I do not think they should be used to justify unnecessary animal suffering.

"my axolotl has swallowed a stone" is going to continue to be a regular occurrence in this forum but I hope that treatments which may inflict severe pain are not encouraged when at a price pain relief and skilled intervention is available.

 

[John]

Oceanblue - again, you are making assumptions like dragonlady. I think it's unwise to read cruelty into this, and I think it's important to bear in mind that it may be as or more painful to have a stone lodged in your gut than the process of removing it. We can't just assume the kind of things you are assuming.

And your faith in vets is admirable, but in my experience it is rather misplaced unless you know the vet in question is experienced with amphibians. I've encountered 3 kinds of vet in my life when dealing with amphibians - the first kind freely admits they do not know much about amphibians and recommends looking for treatment elsewhere. The second kind does not know much about amphibians but does not want to pass up the fee so attempts to treat the animal anyhow. The third kind knows their amphibian medicine and is a safe pair of hands. The third kind is quite rare, and unfortunately I've found almost as many of the second kind as the first kind.

So, while I wouldn't recommend doing what Megan did, I can understand why she did so.

 

[Mac Myers]

Absolutes like that are uncalled for - there is no way you can "know" a fatal blockage is inevitable. I am always a little frustrated when people make statements like that.

John... I know you are the "da man" and all but frustration over a comment like that is a bit odd. I see no harm in Shannon's "minor absolute" if it stops people from killing animals and I in no way find it "uncalled for". Anything that keeps someone from killing an animal is rarely "uncalled for".
You are correct that there is no way to "know" that a fatal blockage is inevitable.... but it's a pretty safe bet so once again... I see no reason to pick nits or play with semantics when the health of an animal is at stake.

And your faith in vets is admirable, but in my experience it is rather misplaced unless you know the vet in question is experienced with amphibians.

While I agree with your assessment of Vets.... I was under the impression that Oceanblue was a vet?.... and as far as I see quite a knowledgeable one at that. At the very least he seems interested, experienced, and bright enough to learn of what he speaks before he speaks. And when he speaks I listen.... as I do with you.

 

[oceanblue]

I accept I may be a bit too severe and judgemental at times. I'm a medical pathologist, not a vet or amphibian specialist. In the little animal work I have done there was great emphasis on not causing unnececessary suffering and while I have advocated sharply amputating a damaged limb without anaesthetic rather than delays and a long journey to a distant vet in another thread I think the balance of causing suffering and cure in this sort of procedure is too high.

It is very hard to assess the extent of suffering in axolotls but I feel strongly that If I had an axolotl in this position I would want it anaesthetised before the stone was removed either by massage or instrument. I am aware that standard doses of fish anaesthetic are believed to be effective.

It is always possible I am identifying too much with the axolotl. I've a relative due to undergo repeat biliary duct stent change surgery by endoscopy through his mouth tomorrow and he tells me the last change was terribly painful despite heavy sedation.

 

[Mac Myers]

Sorry Oceanblue. Didn't mean to put you on the spot and I certainly did not mean to embarrass you. I respect your line of work and consider the opinion of a Scientific Professional a pretty rare and valuable resource when it comes to discussing disease in animals or people.
Apparently I may have also committed the dumb old white guy sin of assuming your gender to be male when I really have no knowledge of that either.
That said....my other comments stand. I am always interested in anything you have to contribute as I am with Shannon. You both are very knowledgeable, thoughtful, as well as helpful, and I've never seen either of you say anything that wasn't all of those things as well. :happy:
The lecture seemed unwarranted.

 

[oceanblue]

I've tried to read round the numerous points in the last few posts to sort out my own ideas. The animal research consensus is axolotls feel pain and in the absence of evidence to the contrary if a procedure is likely to be painful in a mammal then it should be presumed to be painful to an amphibian. There is evidence that painkillers and anaesthetics work.

I hate reading into axolotls almost human feelings in the pain if not emotional sense but this is precisely what the literature advises.

On this basis I would expect a large stone in the stomach to be relatively painless but to act like a gastric balloon in humans and reduce appetite. I would expect a small stone jamming in the bowel to be very painful and the sort of damage and prolapse stones cause is in humans as nasty as it looks in axolotls.

I would expect any procedure involving instruments down the throat to be painful and given the delicate nature of amphibian skin massage risks inflicting pain and damage.

My own current position is I would not attempt to remove a stone myself by manual or instrumental means unless I could somehow get hold of appropriate painkillers and I would not want a vet to remove it without some form of analgesia/anaesthesia either.

I appreciate that this sort of treatment is hard to find and will cost far more than any economic sense for an axolotl but if you want a cheap humane approach then for axolotls euthanasia is an option.

I appreciate that this treatment has resulted in a successful end result but fear the amount of avoidable suffering and injuries which will often result from others trying to remove large gastric stones after being inspired by this thread.

 

[kuphie]

Megan asked me to look at this thread, saying "It will settle the substrate argument once and for all". I don't know about that. Frankly, both Shamrock and Megan have had a huge amount of luck, in my opinion. How you managed to get the pebble out without causing internal damage to her is a minor miracle. I think there needs to be a large disclaimer on this thread for anyone thinking of trying to same approach, indicating that it is a dangerous, last resort.

So no, I don't think this settles the substrate argument once and for all. All it does is reinforce the point of using large pebbles (larger than this one obviously), sand, or no substrate. But we knew that already.

Don't get my wrong, I completely agree with you. I do not condone people trying to pull rocks from their poor axies stomachs. What i did was a 50/50 chance. I gave her 6 mo. plus to evacuate the stone herself and contacted multiple vet offices, most were ill informed at best. The one hospital that i contacted and trusted to do great work quoted me 400-600 dollars and said she could still die under anesthesia. If that happened no refund for services. When i researched anesthesia for amphibians it looked more risky then cat, dog, rat, ferret, and fish. All animals I'm familiar with anesthetizing on a daily basis at work. So i made a risky decision to remove it myself for free with no anesthesia which might have been cruel. I agree with everything you are saying, this is NOT recommended. As I have said before I was fully prepared for the consequences of fatal results. It was either this or euthanasia. And I hope you all understand why I did what I did. I don't want to upset anyone.

More importantly, I still think my story has something to say about the size of rocks that can be swallowed. This is the point i was trying to bring up with my thread. Most sites just say use rocks too big to swallow. I thought I researched substrate size properly. According to Axolotl.org gravel 2cm or larger is okay, but my 5 1/2 in axolotl swallowed a 2cm rock. She wasn't even full grown size yet. Theoretically that means full grown axolotls can eat rocks even bigger. As rare as it might be, I now think that rocks should be the same size or preferably bigger then their head. Just to be safe i feel that sand or bare bottom only is best. This is the only point i want to make about substrate arguments on this forum. Thank you for listening, as I greatly value your opinions.

 

[dazkeirle]

Not wanting to chime in here with a newbie point of view but...

I think it's very difficult for us to know or not know what or how an Axolotl feels about anything. It's not possible for us to determine which would have been more painful for the little fella however I'm sure in many situations an owner would panic and simply euthanise the creature, possibly in an inhumane way which was in this instant avoided and a full recovery observed, that's got to be good right?

I'm fairly sure I would prefer to have some form of action taken than to walk around with a rock the size of a television in my stomach.

If we're going to learn anything here, and on the numerous other rock/gravel in belly threads is that there is simply not enough exposure to the no.1 threat to the health of an Axolotl's health, gravel, stones and any substrate small enough to eat but large enough to cause blockages. If there were, we wouldn't still see the same issues arising continuously.

If this were my site, and I really wanted to make a real difference I'd certainly have some kind of sticky, banner, notification ensuring everybody that visits this sub forum is at least advised of the dangers of these substrates.

 

[oceanblue]

Kuphie clearly carefully researched, did not act hastily and suggests we need to highlight even more the gravel problem. I think this is a good idea but a sticky at the top of the sick axolotl sub forum is too late, it has to be somewhere else. John may also wish to consider revising upwards the size of gravel advised in the housing section of the axolotl site to 4cm for large adults in the light of the size of this stone.

It was not apparent (at least to me) from her earlier posts quite how clued up she was on animals, anaesthesia and risks and I appreciate she made a careful informed decision.

It is important that people do not hastily attempt to massage gravel out. The results will often be different, especially if the gravel is sharp and angular.

Daz's footer is a step in the right direction - a good personal campaign!

 

[John]

John may also wish to consider revising upwards the size of gravel advised in the housing section of the axolotl site to 4cm for large adults in the light of the size of this stone.

According to Axolotl.org gravel 2cm or larger is okay, but my 5 1/2 in axolotl swallowed a 2cm rock.

Axolotl.org was written in the late 1990s and I haven't changed most of the pages to any degree since then. However, I did update the gravel information based on feedback from this forum quite a few years ago.

The vast majority of axolotls won't swallow a 2 cm diameter pebble and it's a generally safe guideline. Note I say 2 cm as a minimum on that page.