Hybrid Ambystoma mexicanum x Ambystoma andersoni

[Sean90]

I have a question towards this breeding. I have recently read researching the Ambystoma andersoni and read how wild populations are closely related due to inbreeding. If offspring weren't sterile could they bred back to A.andersoni and purified. Similar breeding is done in poultry to increase genetic material and a zoological example would be Barbary lions with normal african lions.

If done only by experienced keepers.
Only a hypothetical question.

 

[Bellabelloo]

I can't see how they could be 'purified' by breeding them back to a a pure A. andersoni. Even over many generations, there would still be A. mexicanum DNA there.

 

[xxianxx]

One interesting observation of the hybrids is that their feet do not have the A.andersoni webbing, it may be worthwile remembering this if you want to check the "A.andersoni" you are planning to buy are not hybrids.

 

[jasper408]

The problem with letting both occur concurrently in the hobby is that you have that one asshat who passes off hybrid animals as pure to unsuspecting Suzie Axiekeeper, who then breeds it with the one at home, and then sells off the babies to more unsuspecting Happy Bunny Club members.

Granted, most serious keepers know better than to get stock from people like Suzie, but that's how things 'accidentally' leak. It just takes one person with a little less morals than people like Julia, Ian, and Michael, and the whole species gene pool is in trouble.

Some people can't be trusted to be ethical or honest. Some people just have no ethics at all.

I couldn't agree more. I can sympathize why someone would want to believe in their fellow man, especially someone from this forum. It is heart-breaking when this trust is broken, and it angers me to no end.

Now would be a good time for me to take the time to thank all of the good people on this forum. Without them and their newts, I, as well as many others, would not be as engrossed in this wonderful hobby. (which is a good thing, of course. )

 

[millerj76]

One interesting observation of the hybrids is that their feet do not have the A.andersoni webbing, it may be worthwile remembering this if you want to check the "A.andersoni" you are planning to buy are not hybrids.

i press quick reply but for some reason i am quoting every time. Watching the progress of these hybrids will be a great 'research tool',. Already ian has noticed a difference in the feet, and firstly the different temperament, and has let us all know, thanks, and maybe as they grow there will be some more differences, and the more we know about these, then the more informed we will be when it comes to buying A.andersoni and A.mexicanum. Valueable information, i'm a novice still, but being very interested in all salamanders, and hoping to purchase a.andersoni in the future, i'm sure this will be a valuble thread for myself, and others. In the dog world they would be called mungrels, nobody would like to pay for a full breed, only to realise in the future they actually paid way over the odds. So this thread could very well be very important now and in the future. Would be great to see some graphic representations of any differences, and or comparisons.

 

[xxianxx]

Would be great to see some graphic representations of any differences, and or comparisons.

I will take some better pics latter in the week, I am moving them into my shed and giving them a tank upgrade.

 

[trailsofslime]

You know since this thread has been started there are probably a bunch of people already trying to hybridize them for the pet trade. It's a given people are looking to make a quick buck. Not to mention 2 years ago there were some decent numbers of andersoni available here in the US and there are breeders working with them, so it is only a matter of time, as a matter of fact I can see them being crossed with GFP mexicanumm and so on and so forth. I just know how people in the pet industry think and hybrids are often popular pet store animals, like freshwater parrot fish, when they first came on the seen they were few and far between and expensive, now they are everywhere, inexpensive and they are infertile (you have to breed a red devil with a gold severum to get them).

So with great power comes great irresponsibility, just sayin, it's gonna happen, so be as high and mighty and as responsible as you want but the cat is now out of the bag.

Personally I like andersoni they way they are they are big beautiful animals and when available again as CB ill probably grab some, but will now wonder if they are pure.

 

[xxianxx]

You know since this thread has been started there are probably a bunch of people already trying to hybridize them for the pet trade. It's a given people are looking to make a quick buck.
So with great power comes great irresponsibility, just sayin, it's gonna happen, so be as high and mighty and as responsible as you want but the cat is now out of the bag.

This may come as quite a shock to you but I didnt invent hybrids. The fact that hybridisation between A.mexicanum and A .andersoni can occur is well known and I doubt that this thread will encourage other people to do it for a "quick buck".

 

[Bellabelloo]

This was my main concern about posting this thread.
People are already raising hybrids of some species, they are just not too keen on making it public. Over the last few years I have read and come across it, and it saddens me enormously. There has been posts on here asking how to do it and there have been posts on here of people keeping mixed species together that could breed. There are also naturally occurring hybrids out in the wild.
Rather than ignoring it and pretending it doesn't happen , I was hoping something more would come out of this post.
Knowing that Ian and I are raising these hybrids, I would like to think that it may make some people more aware of what they may be purchasing. I am pretty sure that already there are andersoni hybrids being sold here as pure andersoni in the UK are still reasonably scarce. I have yet to hear of anyone yet having bred them, and they are still expensive. At some point I can see that they will be intentionally hybridized . Not to mention that I am convinced that some andersoni will be naively housed with axolotl as they are so similar in their care. When they reproduce, I hope that they are not passed off as something they are not.

 

[TylototritonGuy]

Like Ian actually said, Julia and himself did not invent hybrid specimens so how can you say that "You know since this thread has been started there are probably a bunch of people already trying to hybridize them for the pet trade. It's a given people are looking to make a quick buck." ?

They even state that this shouldn't be done and several other people have said the same thing and given very good reasons why it shouldn't be done. You can't say that they are responsible if people start doing it, for one you would have to get hold of Andersoni specimens which isn't really that easy. Ian even stated that these were only given to people he knew would never try to pass them off as Andersoni or otherwise.

What stopped people from breeding hybrids before this thread? Just because someones mentioned it and told people not to do it doesnt mean people will start going out their way to breed them lol Does that mean we should do a Harry Potter and start calling topic like "Topic That Shall Not Be Spoke" as that would be plain stupid? You can't step around sore areas because you're scared that it may encourage people, if you don't address an issue and tell people not to try it then there's certainly more chance that people shall try it as you say "To make a quick buck".

 

[xxianxx]

Some better pics, I am just transferring these guys to my shed as they need a tank upgrade.

 

[Dr0gr1n]

I'm interested do see what happens when these F1's are crossed to each other or back to the female mexicanum that was their mother.

I wonder if the F2's will keep the andersoni coloration or more of the wild type will come through.

I'm not even sure if you plan to do this or not but it would be interesting. Just to see if any recessive a come out that we're from the mothers genes, or if the gills loose their forward curl. If webbing comes back between toes ( fathers genes), etc..

Keep us updated as I am very curious.

 

[xxianxx]

I'm interested do see what happens when these F1's are crossed to each other or back to the female mexicanum that was their mother.

I wonder if the F2's will keep the andersoni coloration or more of the wild type will come through.

I'm not even sure if you plan to do this or not but it would be interesting. Just to see if any recessive a come out that we're from the mothers genes, or if the gills loose their forward curl. If webbing comes back between toes ( fathers genes), etc..

Keep us updated as I am very curious.

I am planning on keeping two-three females, they will be used to provide feeders. I will be trying to breed them with male A.andersoni and A.mexicanum (golden/leucistic/wild type), may throw up some interesting colours and patterning, it may also show at what point a hybrid can be mistaken for a pure A.andersoni and what to look for to tell the difference, with the F1 it is the lack of feet webbing, tail shape and colouring. The F2 , (F1 when crossed with A.andersoni) may still show features of A.mexicanum . This information could potentially be used to weed out hybrids from the hobby and keep the gene pool pure, for a while at least, some clown is bound to offer hybrids for sale at some point. I must reiterate that mine will never be for sale or trade and will be kept completely separate from my other larvae. I would be happy to let them go to genuine researchers but I am not sure of the legality of that in the UK, I think research animal suppliers have to be licensed.

 

[Wild TONY appeared!]

I am glad that this feat has been undertaken by some hobbyists as responsible as yourselves. The F2 results should be interesting, especially the ones crossed from an Andersoni-Mexicanum back to the Andersoni. Hopefully this thread will help people tell hybrids apart from pure Andersoni in the future, as I'm sure it will happen. Either from someone being misinformed about what they had, or from someone "trying to make a quick buck". Thank you for putting in the effort to study the differences so that we will not have to.

~Anthony

 

[michael]

I am planning on keeping two-three females, they will be used to provide feeders..

The sooner you eat them the better.

 

[xxianxx]

The sooner you eat them the better.

I may eat a hybrid with one of the gfp axolotls you breed, there is no point showing mild disagreement about A.mexicanum/Aandersoni hybrids when you breed axolotls with jelly fish genes.

 

[michael]

I may eat a hybrid with one of the gfp axolotls you breed, there is no point showing mild disagreement about A.mexicanum/Aandersoni hybrids when you breed axolotls with jelly fish genes.

It is pretty simple to identify a gfp axolotl. I don't think they are legal for you to have in the UK. My disagreement with crossbreeding is not mild. I was just being civil.

 

[xxianxx]

It is pretty simple to identify a gfp axolotl. I don't think they are legal for you to have in the UK. My disagreement with crossbreeding is not mild. I was just being civil.

Yes they are illegal (thankfully) and yes you were being civil. I was just making the point that whilst hybrids are not particularly liked or wanted in the hobby by the majority of people, gpf seem to have escaped the same censure.

 

[michael]

It is interesting where we draw lines. I guess I just wanted add my thoughts to this thread without starting a huge battle.
Best wishes
Michael

 

[xxianxx]

It is interesting where we draw lines. I guess I just wanted add my thoughts to this thread without starting a huge battle.
Best wishes
Michael

Michael, I have a lot of respect for you and dont particularly want an argument either. The hybrids will be locked up in my shed and will not be entering the Uk gene pool so will have zero impact on the Uk andersoni and mexicanum populations. My andersoni and mexicanum breeding will take place in a separate shed which I have planned for the new year.