How was Gersfeld?

[david]

With the show in Gersfeld ending today, how was it? Anyone have any pics or comments?

 

[sergé]

Well..I feel a little bit double in this fact. The lectures were great, there were a lot of books including a new piece on Feuersalamanders, Salamandra (in german) (see: www.laurenti.de) and there were great discussions with other people. What was sad to see was that this meeting was being misused by people. Besides many Captive Bred animals being exchanged or sold there were apparently also people there who had again freshly illegal (!) wild caught animals for sale to make there trip profitable. The rules for trading and changing animals on the meeting are clear that there need to be the proper papers with protected animals...but they were not there. For me, than you are harming this hobby more...you are not a hobbyist anymore but have crossed the line and become an animal trader. And those people I don't like much. But that's just a small stain on a nice meeting.

 

[philipp]

Hi Serge,...
Yes, it's sad,...Even on Sunday, there were WC animals,...Sold by the person, being there to control,...
Some buckets were closed quickly in cars, when passing by, but what was was seen, will have consequences.
The lectures were more like adverts for catching fieldtrips, structured by pics and words about the efforts and circumstances, making prices that high,...
Collecting becomes more and more disease. You don't have to be able to differ between the newt species you consume as WCs, just have popular rarities to trade and to go on collecting,...
Nice new contacts were made, good talkings,...
But you have to be blind to see what's going wrong.
Adding a new species on your list, makes you a bigger name quicker than getting longtime experience,....
Some even "forget" animals regularly in hotel rooms, as we were told,.....
Ts ts,...
Greets,
Greetings,

 

[patrick]

As always, the lectures were been excellent and
I had nice contacts again to a lot of people! I also have seen there some interesting species , so Ranodon sibiricus, Gyrinophilus porphyriticus, Cynops cyanurus, Cynops chenggongensis. About C. chenggongensis see this thread ,,The C. chenggongensis thread yet again (II)"
I had taken 2 pictures of Harry Dresens's animals but my mother unfortunately has deleted all my Gersfeld pictures by mistakes today.

but I can say, the animals shown there do look exactly like those on the pictures in this thread...
I'll join the meeting next year again

I can't say about WC animals a lot but you could really get a suspicious impression when you see a large number of Salamandra s. bernardezi offered by one person for example... we'll see..


best regards,

Patrick

 

[harry]

Yes it was nice. I sold a lot of my CB2004. For those who need information about housing etc you can find the caresheets on my homepage or even email me so that you do not have to buy next year the same newts.!!For those who want to know how to use the collembola a gave to a lot of friends look on my website www.salamanders.tk

 

[john]

I've been to Gersfeld three times I believe (my old memory can let me down some times). 2000, 2001 and 2002 - thanks to Patrick for looking after me for all of the first two and part of the third, and thank you very much Henk Wallays for getting me there and back in good company in 2002.

On each occasion there were several people offering animals that were either wild caught or highly likely to be wild caught. Philipp's image of people closing car boots (trunks for the US people) reminds me of a similar experience I had: I had come out between two lectures and noticed people at a car. I went over and as soon as the car owner (I assume he was) saw me he seemed to get rather worried and hurriedly broke up the "meeting". I managed to glance inside the car before the little get-together ended and there was a large number of what I am pretty sure were adult Salamandra s. gigliolli in the car.

I also have a distinct memory of Salamandrina terdigitata being offered for sale by people who claimed to be trying to breed the species in captivity for release into the wild. Needless to say, the animals they were selling weren't captive bred.

And then there are the Triturus I saw available every year without papers (in Continental Europe you are required to have papers for all native amphibians I believe).

I can't believe that the people in charge don't know that this goes on. I think that by not saying or doing something about it they are not only making the society look bad, but involving it in illegal activity.

The other ramification of it is that the honest/legal majority of the society's members become associated with these shady people because they are members of the same society.

--

On a lighter note, Patrick and Harry, that "chenggongensis" in Harry's photo can't be chenggongensis - its skin texture is all wrong but perfectly matches that of cyanurus yunnanensis (my spelling might be wrong).

 

[sergé]

Hello John,

well, the problem in fact is that there are roughly two kinds of people there. Ones that come to collect information, change idea's and CB animals. Nothing wrong with that. And than there are people trying to make profit over the backs of salamanders. I have (amongst some others) been complaining in the past and the problem has been discussed. But...I think the organisation should try to at least forbid people with no papers or with illegal wild caught animals (some wild caught were legally caught, so there...starts discussion) to enter the society. A few years ago there was one Italian, now there was one Spaniard selling, highly probable, WC animals without papers. These are just the few stains...but the damage the image of the meeting in total. It seems these people don't have much problems with it, but it was normal in Germanny and the Netherlands 30 years ago as well. I think we need to propose that the organisation will take more responsibility in this and try to act directly, but for me it was a surprise too, I heard it just saturday evening when most of the animals already has changed owner...

I will anyway write to the AG Leitung to ask them next year to pay more attention to it.

 

[philipp]

Hi all
Yes, things have to change. Last year, there was a big discussion on the board of the DGHT (German Society for Reptiles, Amphibians and Herpetology),
but none wanted to know anything about WC trading,...
This year, i could go there because of less problems. And it was disgusting, though i'm especially personally angry about trading for rarities, just to have new names on your list. Many of those people don't know much about what they do.
But many "car-boot"-animals were yellow and black,...
So take a look on the lectures,and some other turkish genus, and,....

Becoming an international sell-out trader becomes very easy in the times of online-communication.
Unfortunately my impression was, that some users of this board just came here, getting certain species, not thinking about who's trade they support,...
Greetings,
Philipp
)

 

[juraj]

There is nothing easier to prevent. Not to buy or trade.

 

[sergé]

Perfectly said Juraj. Although one can discuss about WC animals (trust me Philipp I feel the same way on the still ongoing massive imports on for instance Tylototriton species) but one can only take action when things are done without the proper papers. Where illegal activities take place the DGHT should take action because it can ruin their reputation even if the people doing it are not their members.

 

[philipp]

Right Serge.One could discuss. We both don't talk of persons, catching e.G. two pairs or importing some eggs,....
I also got animals there. some CB verrucosus and an animal that is changed because of reasons of the T.shanjing studbook.
But it's horrible to see, that even such people, who "seem to want to replace Wcs by CBs",
are pretty involved in questionable Trades,...
Greets,
Philipp

 

[henk]

Well although I agree with the comments it does look like the meeting is Gersfeld is nothing but trouble ... which I don't agree with. In the evenings I met -as most of the time- with lots of people and talked about our curious hobby drinking a white wine or a beer. There's plenty of lectures which were worth the trip to me : the Vietnamese tyloto /deloustali trip b, the caecilian discovery by Alex Kupfer, italian newts by our crzay duo (Frank and Sergé), more info on the former Mertensiella luschani by Thiesmeier, ...
some short notives on breeding various species and for the hardcore ones a lecture on amphibian diseases (which I skipped since at the end I feel as bad as the salamanders on the accompagnying shots). I agree about the WC sales but shouldn't we also mention those good topics either ??

 

[philipp]

The problem is, that trades seem to go on every year,..
So should we ignore that again to see just the soul-healing good topics?
Touching animals for several times outside their boxes, plus smoking inside the room and touching animals afterwards seem to be quite ignorable too,...
think of some "Teddy-bear-tigrinum,....";-)
Greets,
Philipp

 

[john]

I think it's easier to emphasise the bad rather than the good. Each trip to Gersfeld for me was very satisfying and it helped to encourage me with my hobby. My understanding of German is _barely_ sufficient to assimilate the basics of each lecture (I can't speak it though, and I seem to understand Dutch and Flemish speakers of German better than native Germans!). Henk highlights, for me, the most valuable and satisfying aspect of the meeting - the huddles at the bar/restaurant.

My first message in this thread was to reinforce the point made by others: the behaviour of a small minority can bring the majority into disrepute, and something should be done about it. I am no longer a member of the AG Urodela or the DGHT, so I can understand if others think it isn't my place to judge, but I do care about the perception of our interest/hobby.

 

[yago]

I had a great time there. Even though, I reckon that they could provide a translation service for next year since more than 20% were non German. Also, an abstract in English of the conference would be very much appreciated.
Sergé had a great act of kindness by pioneered the first conference in English to promote a more international event. I had a great time at his conference on Italian species which I found very interesting theme. And Henk also was very kind by explaining all his conference in English at the lunch time in our table.
I missed some conference on captive breeding, husbandry, techniques and so rather than having more conferences of localities, beautiful pictures and trips.
I also had the chance of getting some CB species which I was very much interested of such as t.vittatus cilicensis from Serge, hynobious juveniles along with a great bottle of Belgium Beer from Henk which I will drink tomorrow

several species from Harry such as cynops cyanurus, leucistic t.carnifex…, and so on.
Moreover, some people brought adult specimens which where wild capture, imported (I got a couple of pachyhynobius shangchengensis and captive breed. There is a bipolar attitude towards that from the very radicals from both sides to the more wise with more wide-ranging attitudes on that. I don’t bother at all if enthusiast take a couple of adult specimens as long as is not for economic purposes. We don’t have to forget, for example, that more than 10.000 amphibians and reptiles die at the roads every year just in Spain, plus summer fires, introduction of fishes for sport fishing, urbanisation, pollution and a long list of unlucky degradation environment factors for amphibian’s populations. If exchange occur between enthusiasts with few WC animals (by their own judgement- if they consider that this is not a harm for the population or if they considered it is not easily available as CB for whatever circumstances, or whatever) this should be always done away from any meeting as Gersfeld, caudate.org or any thing with a public image that promotes and supports the values we all know and probably also support. I reckon that everybody understands that the main aim of those meeting, website and so is to increase the knowledge of those fascinating animals, create a good culture, a hobby meeting point, and promote captive breeding and availability of CB animals.
It is also important to consider that the lack of background may end up with a wrong impression. I suppose, the collection of hundreds of adults from nature is not even considered as an option from anyone here. But, some people might have a lot of exceeding adult animals as well. Is not common but few people breed some species in big outdoors enclosures for years. For example, a couple of Spanish keepers have overstock adults of salamandras, triturus species (there is one Spanish colleague with more than 100 adults triturus vittatus, karelinii and so running in their outdoors enclosures for years). If he has the change to come to Gesrfeld some day most people could get a wrong impression by the fact that he offers or exchanges a great number of adults. So, it is very wise to know the person and the story behind before any criticism.
The attitude of all attendances in all aspect, rather than plain criticism, will change future meetings. Gersfeld was great by all means and few shadows might have put tinny dots in the brightness of the meeting. Lets try all of us to improve next year meeting. I will try to bring a lot of CB animals next year to let other enthusiast enjoy my species and to back up my budged meeting. I almost couldn’t come back to Spain since I had no money left in my pockets, just a great smile in my face, new colleagues and a lot to talk about till next year.

 

[john]

Yago - I can't condone illegal actions like collecting a few protected European species for trade or giving away.

 

[yago]

You can’t condone the illegal action or the act to collecting few wild animals or the giving away?
I can’t condone the irrationality of protection by law without implementation of protection programs, solving black road spots of amphibians mortality, the burning of tons of pleurodeles walt in the south of Spain as happens in the fish factories because they cannot do anything legally or illegally with them and a long so on.
I can’t condone the use of wild animals as a money source either.
I can condone a biologist/enthusiast that collects few specimens for their study and for captive breeding purposes. I can condone the collection of a non classified specie/variety for the same reason.
I can’t condone the disappearance of a specie or subspecies because nobody had care of it as it has happen, just here in Europe, with several subspecies of triturus alpestris during the last decade. I am the only one that seems interested to keep and breed all triturus alpestris subspecies but it’s already to late. So, no future reintroduction programs like is happening in Mexico with axoltl can be done anymore with those extinct relics.
As I said before it is a bipolar matter. And opinions should be respected and balanced before any criticism.
But as I said this is just my own personal opinion based on my knowledge and experiences.

 

[sergé]

The biggest problem is, to my opinion, that there are rules and regulations, and especially on a official society meeting like this people have to try and stick to those rules. No matter what you personally think.
My personal opinion:
For me there is a big difference in taken two or three couples and breed them and than change these CB ones. I took 5 juveniles T.v.cilicensis last year. Lost one, but bred with these 4 animals (2:2) around 100 animals this year and hopefully will do that next year. These animals I can trade or change or give away. Adn I hope they they will produce as well (most sadly will never is my own experience). This I could allow myself as in this population it was difficult to find 100 juveniles in a short period, so 5 less is not effectively damaging this population. But still... I find that very hard to do and it is an illegal action as I didn't have the proper papers to do so. And I can only do it if I promise myself to publish the breeding results, and other things which helps to understand the ecology of this species better. They are than also more scientific research animals.
For me that is something completely different than taking adult animals (who are the breeding population) and trade them for something else. Then you have turned them into money. And do nothing in return to help this animal survive.
But...I must say, I am pretty hard on myself, but I hope that many more people will follow....

 

[uwe]

Dear all,

I just wanted add some comments to the above without repeating all the made points. But I agree with John, that it is easy to emphasize the bed to overshadow the execellent meeting. The given talks definetly were not (collecting) field trips (as Henk, Serge and Thiesmeyer for example are out of question) about italian, US and turkey trips. And there were other talks like the talk of vet Mutschmann which was excellent on the virus diseases of amphibians and several more. Just to give an impression on the varities of talks and the non-collection by the presenters.
There is definetly trade of WC animals, which should be minimized or at best stopped. But this is not the point on Gersfeld.
The exchange/giving away of CB animals is the major point on the animal site and on my opinion a good way of becoming healty aninals from the breeder.
And there is the social point!!

Gersfeld was as always a very good experience and the discussion should be on the content not the side effect (without looking away).

Uwe

 

[john]

I wish I had been there, Uwe.

A few official words might be very helpful to discourage exchange of wild-caught animals, at least.