High pH

PH v pH, everyone here knows what I mean so I am not bothered so much about making it perfect. To be honest I just hating holding down shift mid word :p

Well firstly, the basic premise for your idea was that this would be more likely to be a problem outdoors, which I disagree with. I think CO2 build ups are more likely to occur inside a house without much ventilation.

However, you could be right about the long term results of CO2 tending towards alkalinity due to the bicarbonate produced (though most people find that PH is lowered slightly from CO2 injections into a tank), I just don't think even if this is the case it would explain bellabelloo's problem as I doubt the increase would be that significant. We're talking about a PH level of 10 here... But yea, I must confess I have not delved too much into the results of CO2 and my knowledge does not extend significantly beyond the basic ideas that you mentioned in your first post :)
 
I personally would not know the concentration of carbon dioxide inside/outisde the house. But I do know that the amount of carbon dioxide that dissolves into the tank water is dependent on the solubility of carbon dioxide and the temperature of the tank. We all know that there is more oxygen when we place our axolotls in the fridge, well it's no different for carbon dioxide. Seeing as the tank is outside, there will be more carbon dioxide in the tank due to the colder climate.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there are electrolytes (ions) in the tank, including the sodium ion (Na+). A sodium ion will form a 1:1 complex with bicarbonate through coordinate bonding, thus forming what we call "bicarbonate soda". Bicarbonate soda is what the pet stores try to sell you when they tell you to raise your pH.

Jay.
 
Jay, as far as I know, atmospheric carbon dioxide would increase acidity in the long run and thereby lower tank PH so I wouldn't think it would be that... I know this applies to saltwater tanks so perhaps it is not the same for freshwater and I am getting mixed up. Basically (from what I remember), the bicarbonate formed is not enough to offset the lowering of the PH that Co2 causes with the initial formation of carbonic acid.

You're right here Sas (can I call you that?). When atmospheric CO2 is in equilibrium with water the result is acidity. If you're so inclined a detailed calculation of this can be found here. It's a bit complicated and you'll need all your acid/base chemistry to follow. The example is of course a pure water solution, the results change with the addition of lime.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there are electrolytes (ions) in the tank, including the sodium ion (Na+). A sodium ion will form a 1:1 complex with bicarbonate through coordinate bonding, thus forming what we call "bicarbonate soda". Bicarbonate soda is what the pet stores try to sell you when they tell you to raise your pH.

Sodium bicarbonate or baking soda is often sold as a buffering system for aquariums. pH up is usually sodium hydroxide, a base sometimes known as lye.

1. Carbon dioxide from the atmosphere bonds with water water molecules (from the rain), thus forming carbonic acid. This is one of the characteristic traits of 'acid rain' which has a pH of roughly 5.7

That is the pH of normal rain. Distilled, DI, or reverse osmosis water exposed to air always has a low pH because of the CO2 equilibrium. Acid rain is formed by reactions in clouds with sulfur trioxide and nitrogen dioxide to form sulfuric acid and nitric acid respectively with a pH below 4.

For those that are wondering about pH. Small p is a shorthand for log. pH is the log of the concentration of acid in moles per liter.
 
It is true that when CO2 is added to H2O the pH will drop because of carbonic acid (H2CO3) which has an acid-dissociation constant (Ka) of 4.3E-7 at 25 degree celsius. However, H2CO3 is unstable and therefore will react with the other H20 molecules in and conjugate acid-base pair equilibria. Thus, forming the weak base, bicarbonate (HCO3-) which has a base-dissociation constant (Kb) of 2.3E-8. The very reason for this is what I mentioned before about the oxygen molecule in H20 being a strongly polarising atom, H20 will therefore act as a nucleophile and 'attack' the electrophilic H2CO3 in a conjugate acid-base pair equilibria. Despite HCO3- being a weak base, it will still raise the pH slightly.
NB. The larger the value of Ka, the stronger the acid, and therefore the lower the pH

Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is a very strong base and can be sold in pet stores to raise pH. I have a Wardley 'pH up' which utilises sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) as its active constituent. But to say that NaHCO3 is a buffer is misleading because HCO3- is the buffer, not NaHCO3 itself. This can be seen in the major buffer system in blood: the carbonic acid-bicarbonate buffer system. NaHCO3 is used as an acid neutraliser in acid spills. It is also found in antacids (predominately the product Alka-Seltzer) to neutralise HCl, the active acid when referring to gastric juice which has a Ka of 1E-1, corresponding to pH=1. Furthermore, the solubility constant for NaHCO3 is 10.3 g/100g at 25 degree celsius, which makes it hardly soluble. Thus, in water NaHCO3 will not readily dissiociate into HCO3- and Na+ to allow the HCO3- act as a buffer. Also, the tank temperature will obviously be less than 25 degrees celsius which also hinders the dissociation of NaHCO3. The lower the temperature, the fewer collisional interactions between the solvent (water) and solute (NaHCO3). Therefore, NaHCO3 is a base.

Also pH is the negative log base 10 of the aquated hydrogen ion concentration.
Therefore pH = -log [H+/H30+]
Sure pH is associated with acidity but when measuring pH, you do not measure the [acid], you are measuring the [H+/H30+] because as pH decreases [H+] increases.

Jay.
 
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It is true that when CO2 is added to H2O the pH will drop because of carbonic acid (H2CO3) which has an acid-dissociation constant (Ka) of 4.3E-7 at 25 degree celsius. However, H2CO3 is unstable and therefore will react with the other H20 molecules in and conjugate acid-base pair equilibria. Thus, forming the weak base, bicarbonate (HCO3-) which has a base-dissociation constant (Kb) of 2.3E-8. The very reason for this is what I mentioned before about the oxygen molecule in H20 being a strongly polarising atom, H20 will therefore act as a nucleophile and 'attack' the electrophilic H2CO3 in a conjugate acid-base pair equilibria. Despite HCO3- being a weak base, it will still raise the pH slightly.
NB. The larger the value of Ka, the stronger the acid, and therefore the lower the pH

You can see a second description of the calculation of the pH of water under normal atmospheric conditions here just open the word document or click here for the google html version. The effect of atmospheric CO2 is to acidify water not make it alkaline. You are adding carbonic acid to the water, despite the fact it is polyprotic and conjugate bases are formed the water does not become basic. The formation of conjugate bases also produces hydronium ions lowering pH.

Some of these bases in their equilibrium react with hydronium to form their conjugate acid raising the pH, but this is calculated for above. The effect of these comparitively weak bases does not stop acids from acidifying.

When you add sulfuric acid to water you acidify it not basify it despite the fact that H2SO4 can deprotinate twice forming the base SO4-2 (and HSO4-1). In fact this is the acidifying action of acids. They donate protons. If the conjugate bases weren't formed then they wouldn't be making anything acidic.

Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is a very strong base and can be sold in pet stores to raise pH. I have a Wardley 'pH up' which utilises sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) as its active constituent. But to say that NaHCO3 is a buffer is misleading because HCO3- is the buffer, not NaHCO3 itself. This can be seen in the major buffer system in blood: the carbonic acid-bicarbonate buffer system. NaHCO3 is used as an acid neutraliser in acid spills. It is also found in antacids (predominately the product Alka-Seltzer) to neutralise HCl, the active acid when referring to gastric juice which has a Ka of 1E-1, corresponding to pH=1. Furthermore, the solubility constant for NaHCO3 is 10.3 g/100g at 25 degree celsius, which makes it hardly soluble. Thus, in water NaHCO3 will not readily dissiociate into HCO3- and Na+ to allow the HCO3- act as a buffer. Also, the tank temperature will obviously be less than 25 degrees celsius which also hinders the dissociation of NaHCO3. The lower the temperature, the fewer collisional interactions between the solvent (water) and solute (NaHCO3). Therefore, NaHCO3 is a base.

Yes, it's a base but also a weak buffer. HCO3- will go to equilibrium with it's conjugate acid, CO3-2 (damn the lack of superscripts!), making the acid/base pair of a buffering solution. The buffer isn't any one component it's the acid/base pair that makes the buffer. It's a very commonly seen buffer along with the phosphate buffering system.

As to solubility, how can you define sodium bicarbonate as "hardly soluble?" In a ten gallon aquarium you could dissolve nearly 4 kg of NaHCO3.

The way you worded things is odd too. If NaHCO3 dissolves it will form it's ionic components. The undissolved stuff of a supersaturated solution will not, of course.

Also pH is the negative log base 10 of the aquated hydrogen ion concentration.
Therefore pH = -log [H+/H30+]
Sure pH is associated with acidity but when measuring pH, you do not measure the [acid], you are measuring the [H+/H30+] because as pH decreases [H+] increases.
Yes, I misspoke, it is indeed the negative log. I was simplifying by saying acid concentration but yes, more truly it is [H+/H3O+].
 
You turn away and look what happens!

Wow...I go off to work chasing the cherubs and come back to a debate on something I can not even begin to understand!:eek:

Anyway,Jennewt you mentioned lime trees..I do have some reasonably close by and we get the seeds/ leaves /pollen ( starts my hayfever season off) blown over into the garden..that is lime trees that do not resemble lemons..could you be onto something here?

Tiddler was spotted swimming sedately around his tank today..oblivious to the chaos raining around him.
 
Sas is fine Abraham :p I prefer that name and Saspotato is only my backup if I can't have the name 'Sas' :D

Anyway, thanks for explaining the effects of C02 better than my attempt - I only have Year 9 chemistry to back me up and wasn't sure how to explain it properly :) I have done a bit more research today and have found nothing to back up the idea that CO2 can cause an increase in ph - everything states it will have the opposite effect. Check your chemistry again Jay, there are a bunch of links on the internet about the effects of CO2 to give you a hand (Abraham has posted some too :eek:)

Also Jay, you don't need to know the exact inside/outside concentration of CO2, it is common sense to theorise that inside a shut up house with people, CO2 will be at a higher level than outside on average. Of course, there are exceptions to this but the fact that the tank was outside and therefore more likely to have a CO2 problem was what your atmospheric CO2 theory was built on. I disagree with that conclusion.
 
I apologise if my wording does not make sense, but it's especially hard with the lack of equilibrium arrows and super/subscripts, as you mentioned Abrahm

To make things clear I was not saying that CO2 itself raises pH, which what I said in my previous post. I am well aware that it will decrease pH due to the formation of H2CO3. Abrahm, if you say that the base can react with [H+], then it is also possible for a slight increase in pH. Also, it could react with H2O, thus deprotonating the H2O and releasing OH- into solution and once again raising pH.

Regarding solubility, according to the SI Chemical Data (5th edn.), the solubility constant for NaHCO3 is 10.3g per 100g of water. This is hardly soluble, especially in comparison to NaClO3 which has a solubility constant of 100g per 100g of water- completely soluble. Basically what I'm say is that NaHCO3 will behave more often as a base then a buffer.

Sarah, yes it is true that due to the high rate of respiration inside a house it would make sense that the CO2 levels would be higher. When I said that the concentration is immeasureable, that's all I meant. I did not say that the concentration is higher outside than inside. Also, have you contemplated the idea of a well ventilated house? Need less to say, the concentration of CO2 inside/outside the house is just trivial ;) because I already mentioned that the amount of CO2 that dissolves into water is dependent on the solubility of CO2 (which is 0.145g per 100 g of water) and the temperature of the tank.

Nonetheless, this was initially proposed as a hypothesis and it is an open connotation until such debates correct it- such is the beauty of chemistry :rolleyes:

Jay.
 
Nonetheless, this was initially proposed as a hypothesis and it is an open connotation until such debates correct it- such is the beauty of chemistry :rolleyes:

Indeed :eek:

Yeah I guess I must have misunderstood you regarding Co2 levels inside and outside. I said 'shut up' house though, to indicate a poorly ventilated house, so sorry if that was confusing. I more commented on that as it is a common problem in winter to have CO2 build ups lower the PH of a tank due to the fact people keep their windows shut, so the difference in CO2 levels from inside a house and outside becomes non-trivial.
 
I was pondering the gas possibility last night , and having wandered around the garden in the dark with my torch hoping to see some wildlife I noticed something. The gas boiler vent is located not far from the tank, this I noticed wafts in the direction of the tank....


Lime trees :cry:..... not the brightest of buttons here!!
 
Really running out of ideas here... :confused:

One last attempt: the pH test kit.
Most people use a "low range" pH test kit which has a pH range of roughly 6.2-7.6 and the most common indicator is bromothymol blue (BTB). Bellabelloo, you said that the you ended up getting a deep purple colour. This seems rather odd because the colour range for "low range" pH test kits go from: yellow --> green --> blue. This purple colour could mean that you have shot way past the end point of the "low range" pH test kit. Therefore, you might not have been getting the actual pH reading. So perhaps, it might to be good to re-test the pH again but this time using a "high range" pH test kit; that way you don't have to worry about exceeding the end point.

But yeah, that's about all I got up my sleeve and if you have a pH test kit that doesn't use BTB as its prime indicator, then I have nothing left! XD

Jay.
 
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I tended to use a standard test kit, but once I got the high reading I used a 'high range test kit' both came back dark purple . Today the pH is in at a more acceptable level, soi much happier.
 
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