Hatchling Paternity Test

[jmsstoner]

If im correct about my previous post, then my gfp leucistic(G/g d/d A/a t+) should be the one im mating with my coppers (g/g d/d a/a t+). The clutch should be roughly 25% leucistic 25% copper, 25% gfp leucistic and 25% gfp copper.

 

[Boomsloth]

If we assume that the copper gene is a separate recessive trait from the other known genes, then there are certain crosses that can be done to better understand what it effects.

If it acts on melanophores reducing/changing expression. Crossing it with an axanthic individual, then looking at the f2 generation.
Copper: (c/c,Ax/Ax) x Axanthic: (C/C,ax/ax)
f1: 100% = (C/c,Ax/ax)
f1 x f1
f2: ~56% wildtype phenotype, 18.75% axanthic, 18.75% copper, AND 6% copper axanthic (c/c,ax/ax)
This would theoretically leave us an individual that only expresses melanin, which would prove or disprove the melanin theory.

This approach can be done with all other possibilities too and other methods, but unless someone has already done this, we won't expect an answer anytime soon.

 

[auntiejude]

The dominant dark gene (D) is still present.

D is not for 'dark' it's for development. It controls how pigment is distributed through the body, not 'dark' or 'light'. A leucistic can still produce pigment, but it is confined to small patches on the head and spine. It is not a colour gene like A M and AX.

A copper with d/d genes would look like a leucistic with paler reddish freckles.

A copper is not a/a. I am thinking it is not part of the recognised D A M AX system, and is in fact another gene affecting melanin production. If anyone has any definitive proof one way or the other (as per Boomsloth's suggested experiment) please share it.

and the copper produces melanin

But I am saying the copper does not produce eumelanin (normal brown pigment) it produces pheomelanin instead which is reddish.

A copper MUST be D/- because it has pigment throughout it's body. It MUST be A/- because it produces some kind of melanin.

GFP is not a double gene - it is either present or not, if one parent is GFP all of the offspring will be too.

 

[jmsstoner]

Gfp is not a double gene - it is either present or not, if one parent is GFP all of the offspring will be too.

My gfp leucistic has always produced 50% gfp offspring. Never 100%

 

[Elliriyanna]

Maybe she means 100% carry it? They will all carry it but only 50% will express it

 

[michael]

This thread seems like it is turning into a lot of guessing and not things that have been proved out.

 

[auntiejude]

This thread seems like it is turning into a lot of guessing and not things that have been proved out.

OK, point taken - but what do we know to be true?

Your albino x copper proves that copper isn't an albino trait, since you got wildtypes.
Your copper x het copper proves copper is a simple recessive.

Logic dictates that if copper is not albino, then some kind of melanin or melanin-like pigment must be produced, but it is not the normal brown/black kind. But the exact mechanism and genetics still remains unknown.

Until we get e genetecist/biochemist in here we may not know if any of the theories suggested here will hold water. Either that or many years of crossing and back-crossing.

 

[Boomsloth]

My gfp leucistic has always produced 50% gfp offspring. Never 100%

That makes sense since gfp is a dominant allele. Your gfp leucistic is heterozygous for that trait. It will always produce 50% gfp with any non gfp axolotl. Gfp is the only dominant variation I can think of for axolotls.

 

[Boomsloth]

Maybe she means 100% carry it? They will all carry it but only 50% will express it

That's not how GFP works. The gene that encodes the protein was inserted into a site within the DNA that they knew would be transcribed/translated into the GFP protein.
The insertion of the gene means that the chromosome either has it or doesn't and there is no real wild type allele or other variation to compete. The GFP will always be dominant so homozygous and heterozygous GFPs will produce the protein. Although its totally possible that a homozygous GFP might produce more protein and glow brighter.

 

[Kimfishepet]

Alright... To further complicate things, I got a new black light today and - 4 of my 27 larvae from this batch are fluorescing under blacklight! Strange! Wouldn't this mean the mom is the copper and dad is gfp albino? Their eyes are dark.

 

[Boomsloth]

Alright... To further complicate things, I got a new black light today and - 4 of my 27 larvae from this batch are fluorescing under blacklight! Strange! Wouldn't this mean the mom is the copper and dad is gfp albino? Their eyes are dark.

Yes since you only have one GFP male it has to be him because GFP is a dominant allele.
Okay here's where it will start getting confusing, if you are positive the GFP albino came from two leucistic parents then it is technically leucistic as well as albino. Was only one of his parents GFP? because that would be the only option as to why only some babies express GFP. You will also get an idea as to the genotype of the copper if any babies turn out other then wildtype. Punnet squares will figure out the percent likely hood that you will get a certain color but its not exact and remember that 27 eggs is not what a typical axolotl will lay.

 

[jmsstoner]

Alright... To further complicate things, I got a new black light today and - 4 of my 27 larvae from this batch are fluorescing under blacklight! Strange! Wouldn't this mean the mom is the copper and dad is gfp albino? Their eyes are dark.

I don't think the GFP is the father. I've used black light and blue led and have not confirmed any gfps in the clutch. Do you have a photo of this fluorescence? Is it possibly a light colored larvae reflecting the glow of the container? I know the sterlite containers I use glow like crazy and can be deceptive when identifying gfp larvae. Here's some pics I took today, unfortunately, no gfps from what I could tell.

 

[jmsstoner]

Check out the one with red eyes at the top of the second picture. Possibly a copper. I tried to zoom in but I couldn't focus the image at that magnification.

 

[jmsstoner]

Also, this guy:

 

[Kimfishepet]

Okay, I did my best but I've never been able to take a good pic of mine fluorescing. It is definitely glowing. They are in a kritter keeper and I can follow the same four around and only they glow. If I hold the black light close, I can even see a difference with the room light on. If anyone needs a neat flashlight type black light, I just got this today and it's amazing! I had a wand type before. Needs 3 AAA batteries Ultra Light UV Blacklight Flashlight:Amazon:Home Improvement

 

[Kimfishepet]

That bottom one is neat! How many did you keep?

 

[jmsstoner]

Wow. Yeah that looks gfp to me. I wonder if more than one male laid spermatophores. Considering the number of eggs in a clutch, I suppose it would be feasible that more than one male could inseminate a female. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[jmsstoner]

That bottom one is neat! How many did you keep?

A lotta lotls lol

 

[jmsstoner]

And the winner of the paternity test is... GFP albino. He's the same one in my profile pic. I bred him myself so I know his parents are leucistics. One gfp one non. Some of the larvae appear to be leucistic as well. Zero albinos and no confirmed coppers however. Some are very light\reddish colored, but they're still too tiny and transparent to accurately confirm. Plus I can't recall ever seeing a pic of copper larvae this young, so I have nothing to compare them to. They could all end up being really light colored wild types for all I know. Whatever they are, they're indefinitely adorable that's for sure. I'll post pics when I get a chance. Also, does anyone have an image of bona fide copper larvae that they could share?