Hatchling Paternity Test

[jmsstoner]

Mom is copper. Dad is either golden albino, melanoid, or GFP albino. Im guessing theyre copper x melanoid, but Im not 100% sure about which genes will dominate others, or who might be carrying what. The albino came from 2 leucistic parents, so Im sure hes a carrier for leucism. I got the golden and the melanoid at the same time, so they could possibly be from the same clutch. No idea about their parents though. Any info on the gene dominance of the aforementioned morphs, or help identifying these guys would be greatly appreciated.

 

[auntiejude]

Genetics 101:

All genes come in pairs, and it takes 2 recessive genes to show in an axie, so an animal needs 2 albino genes - one from each parent - to be albino. The same for melanoid, leucistic and copper.

Your albino with leucistic parents will be leucistic AND albino (i.e. white albino).
Albinos crossed with a coppers produce albinos.

Your larvae all look like wildtypes to me, so I'd say the melanoid was the most likely dad.

 

[jmsstoner]

Genetics 101:

All genes come in pairs, and it takes 2 recessive genes to show in an axie, so an animal needs 2 albino genes - one from each parent - to be albino. The same for melanoid, leucistic and copper.

Your albino with leucistic parents will be leucistic AND albino (i.e. white albino).
Albinos crossed with a coppers produce albinos.

Your larvae all look like wildtypes to me, so I'd say the melanoid was the most likely dad.

I understand how recessive traits work. What Id like to learn more about is if 2 different recessive traits mate with each other, what are the possibilities of the offspring? As far as wildtypes, the only wildtype I own is GFP, and female, so thats out. And never produced wilds in previous clutches either. But I would assume all axies would would carry the wild gene, right?

 

[auntiejude]

OK, so if you understand the basics the rest shouldn't be too hard.

An axie can have more than one recessive trait, but some are masked by others.

For instance your albino with leucistic parents must also be leucistic
His genotype is d/d M/- a/a AX/-
However, this type of albino looks very similar to a melanoid albino (m/m) - both have no iridophores or yellow colour.

An axie with melanoid and leucistic genes (m/m and d/d) will not look very different from a regular leucistic, as the leucistic genes prevent any pigment from expressing through the body.

In your situation your copper is
D/- M/M a/a AX/-
and your melanoid is
D/- m/m A/A AX/-

You only have wildtype offspring, so:
At least one of your parents must be D/D, if not both
Your melanoid must be homozygous for non-albino (A/A) since your copper is a/a (or c/c).
Your copper is M/M becasue if it was heterozygous (M/m) you would have some melanoid babies too.

BUT all your babies must be heterozygous for M and A(C) genes. If you cross-bred 2 of those F1 offspring (sibling pairings are not recommended though) you would get a mix of copper and melanoid, and if one of the original parents carries a leucistic recessive gene (D/d) you may get some of those too.

Does that make sense?

 

[willowcat]

You married?

 

[michael]

Genetics 101:




Albinos crossed with a coppers produce albinos.

.

Are you sure? If the copper is a simple recessive and the albino is a simple recessive the offspring would have one of each recessive gene. Wouldn't they just look like wild type if they weren't carrying something else hidden that paired up with a recessive gene?

 

[auntiejude]

Are you sure? If the copper is a simple recessive and the albino is a simple recessive the offspring would have one of each recessive gene. Wouldn't they just look like wild type if they weren't carrying something else hidden that paired up with a recessive gene?

I thought copper was related to albino - is that not the case?

I can't find much on the copper gene, but I was under the impression that it's a lack of melanophores and functions in a similar way to albino - coppers have red eyes. Therefore a copper x albino would have no melanophores. Although if I have that wrong I'll stand corrected.

If anyone else has a good resource on copper genetics please share it.

Or if anyone has a spare copper male I'll be happy to take him do some breeding experiments with my females and see what happens...

 

[oceanblue]

If none of the offspring glow then the GFP albino is not the father. If about half of them do then he is! I'm not sure you can sort out which of the others is the possible father, as the traits you mention are recessive and without more genetic markers I don't think there is a firm answer.

Suggestion- if you want to know who is the daddy keep your axolotls in pairs!

 

[michael]

I thought copper was related to albino - is that not the case?

I can't find much on the copper gene, but I was under the impression that it's a lack of melanophores and functions in a similar way to albino - coppers have red eyes. Therefore a copper x albino would have no melanophores. Although if I have that wrong I'll stand corrected.
)

When i bred my copper to gold albino gfp I expected copper offspring as i had been told by some. All of the offspring were wild type. Some were gfp and some weren't. Now I have a bunch of het copper - het gold offspring. Some are gfp and some are not. They are all wild type. It will be interesting to breed them to back to coppers.

I expect half of my offspring will be copper and half will be het for copper expressed as wild type. I think the real confuser is if you have an axolotl that is phenotypically copper and gold at the same time. I think that is when you get the pink eyed coppers. It is my understanding that not all coppers are pink eyed. I will know more as I prove this by out crossing and back crossing.

 

[Boomsloth]

When i bred my copper to gold albino gfp I expected copper offspring as i had been told by some. All of the offspring were wild type. Some were gfp and some weren't. Now I have a bunch of het copper - het gold offspring. Some are gfp and some are not. They are all wild type. It will be interesting to breed them to back to coppers.

I expect half of my offspring will be copper and half will be het for copper expressed as wild type. I think the real confuser is if you have an axolotl that is phenotypically copper and gold at the same time. I think that is when you get the pink eyed coppers. It is my understanding that not all coppers are pink eyed. I will know more as I prove this by out crossing and back crossing.

I agree, but I think coppers might be a gene that causes an incomplete reduction in melanophores giving a light brown/olive-ish color, with a different ratio of xanthophoric pigments. Xanthophores are typically thought of as yellow pigmentation but can also be associated and produce the pigments associated with erythrophores which is the red/orange carotenoids . They found that its hard to determine between the two in some cases since one cell can produce both types of pigmentation at varying levels. This leads me to believe that the xanthophore/erythrophore pigment cells are expressing more red/orange than yellow, mix that with the light brown and it can produce copper.
I think this can be tested by breeding an axolotl that is homozygous for albinism, and homozygous for copper and wildtype for everything else. This will remove the melanophores but hopefully leave the xanthophores, which without copper would produce a golden albino, but if they come out looking like cheese doodles then we can assume that is the role of the copper gene.

EDIT: If you breed your het copper/het gold together (assuming they are not carriers of any other phenotype) I believe that a percentage (~25%) of those offspring can be homozygous copper/gold.

 

[auntiejude]

When i bred my copper to gold albino gfp I expected copper offspring as i had been told by some. All of the offspring were wild type.

Well that surprises me, but if those are the results you have it proves something - I'm not sure what though! Probably that your copper is A/A, the mechanism for copper is elsewhere.

But am I right in thinking copper females lay white eggs, the same as albinos? Maybe thats where the confusion lies.

But if will be interesting to see what the next generation brings.

But the question remains: Is copper a whole different colour gene, or is it a variation on one of the recognised 3? I would like to think it's a simple variation in melanophore, erythrophore and xanthaphore expression, but I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than that...

Suggestion- if you want to know who is the daddy keep your axolotls in pairs!

Best suggestion EVER!

 

[michael]

We need to do a thread on coppers again. I think they are T + albino They lack the enzyme to complete melanin synthesis.
When I have a little more insight I'll say more. I just don't want to repeat what I have read. The U.S. importer of coppers has mislead me in the past.

 

[oceanblue]

I've not been able to find a definitive answer to what copper is but my understanding is in other species (mainly humans as I'm medically qualified) there are several sorts of albinism repesenting different defects in a chain of enzymes which make melanin.

The commonest is a defect in tyrosinase. The copper gene is a form of albinism (T+ is tyrosinase positive) but presumably a different gene from the "standard" {tyrosinase negative) albino so a copper crossed with "golden albino" could/should produce wild types.

 

[jmsstoner]

I've not been able to find a definitive answer to what copper is but my understanding is in other species (mainly humans as I'm medically qualified) there are several sorts of albinism repesenting different defects in a chain of enzymes which make melanin.

The commonest is a defect in tyrosinase. The copper gene is a form of albinism (T+ is tyrosinase positive) but presumably a different gene from the "standard" {tyrosinase negative)

From what I've researched, this sounds correct. Also, here is an explanation that I found regarding T- & T+ albinism.


Albino = has less than the normal amount of a pigment. It is often synonymous with amelanistic (white with pink eyes). But depending on context, it could also apply to a non-melanin-based pigment (ie: albino plants have no chlorophyll) or to an animal with limited melanin-based pigment.

Tyrosinase negative albino = an animal that lacks melanin because it cannot make tyrosinase. Tyrosinase is an enzyme that catalyses the first two steps of the multistep conversion of an amino acid named tyrosine into melanin.

Tyrosinase positive albino = an animal that can make tyrosinase but can not produce melanin. Some tyrosinase positive albinos look like tyrosinase negative albinos, and some have some melanin, but not the typical amount of melanin pigment.

 

[auntiejude]

OK, so going back to the original question of paternity we are still no closer to an answer.

So if coppers are a result of incomplete melanin production, producing tyrosine but not melanin, does that mean the mechanism is outside the recognised 3 colour genes? And if it is a simple recessive (it must be, right?) does that mean that a copper is a wildtype that can't produce normal melanin?

 

[jmsstoner]

OK, so going back to the original question of paternity we are still no closer to an answer.

So if coppers are a result of incomplete melanin production, producing tyrosine but not melanin, does that mean the mechanism is outside the recognised 3 colour genes? And if it is a simple recessive (it must be, right?) does that mean that a copper is a wildtype that can't produce normal melanin?

I think a better description from the way that I understood it was that a copper is a type of albino that is capable of producing small amounts of melanin.

As far as determining paternity, I still think the melanoid is the father. If that is in fact the case, we're essentially talking about breeding an axie that produces an excess of melanin with an axie that produces limited amounts of melanin. As far as what color they turn out remains TBD. But I'll try to post some new pics in the next couple of days, and periodically throughout their development. Roughly half do appear to have a dark, melanoid looking tint to them, and the other half look almost like leucistics with some small areas of body pigment.Their pigment is noticeably lighter than the other wild types I've raised. But they,re still only about a week old, and their size and translucence still makes it hard to tell definitively.

Regardless of the parents, or the morph they end up being, they are 100% axolotl... therefore they are 100% awesome

 

[auntiejude]

I think a better description from the way that I understood it was that a copper is a type of albino that is capable of producing small amounts of melanin.

I agree in terms of phenotype.

But in terms of genotype it can't be a/a if it produces wildtype babies when crossed with a golden albino, which means the copper mechanism isn't linked to the standard albinism genes.

I'll have to go read up on melanin production, but could it be just another type of melanin? Eumelanin is the brown-black pigment we normally see, but pheomelanin is the red-orange pigment we see in mammals. This fits with the T+ aspect of the mechanism. Effectively, coppers are redheads rather than brunettes...

Any evidence or research on this?

 

[jmsstoner]

I agree in terms of phenotype.

But in terms of genotype it can't be a/a if it produces wildtype babies when crossed with a golden albino, which means the copper mechanism isn't linked to the standard albinism genes.

I'll have to go read up on melanin production, but could it be just another type of melanin? Eumelanin is the brown-black pigment we normally see, but pheomelanin is the red-orange pigment we see in mammals. This fits with the T+ aspect of the mechanism. Effectively, coppers are redheads rather than brunettes...

Any evidence or research on this?

In terms of evidence, I would say the white eggs would certainly be an indicator of being a/a. Perhaps the wild trait was passed from the golden parent ( D/d or D/D a/a). And if that is in fact the case, breeding albinos with coppers and always getting albinos would also make since (a/a x a/a). However, I'm still not sure about the possibilities of (m/m x a/a), I assume it would depend on the other genes carried by the melanoid. Also what about adding leucistic genes into the mix (d/d)? There has to be someone on here who knows the answer to that one

 

[auntiejude]

In terms of evidence, I would say the white eggs would certainly be an indicator of being a/a. Perhaps the wild trait was passed from the golden parent ( D/d or D/D a/a). And if that is in fact the case, breeding albinos with coppers and always getting albinos would also make since (a/a x a/a). However, I'm still not sure about the possibilities of (m/m x a/a), I assume it would depend on the other genes carried by the melanoid. Also what about adding leucistic genes into the mix (d/d)? There has to be someone on here who knows the answer to that one

But Michael got wildtype babies from his copper x albino pairing - meaning that the copper must have been A/A - so the only way they can lay white eggs would be for them not to produce eumelanin in another way. This supports both the T+ and pheomelanin model. I was wrong in my original assumption, which was based on the white eggs meaning albino genes in coppers.

Leucistic genes (D) control pigment distribution and are not a 'true' colour gene, so lets leave those genes out of the discussion for now. A a/a and m/m albino is white - no yellow, no iridophores - and the m/m genes would not (in theory) have any different effect on coppers.

 

[jmsstoner]

But Michael got wildtype babies from his copper x albino pairing - meaning that the copper must have been A/A - so the only way they can lay white eggs would be for them not to produce eumelanin in another way. This supports both the T+ and pheomelanin model. I was wrong in my original assumption, which was based on the white eggs meaning albino genes in coppers.

Leucistic genes (D) control pigment distribution and are not a 'true' colour gene, so lets leave those genes out of the discussion for now. A a/a and m/m albino is white - no yellow, no iridophores - and the m/m genes would not (in theory) have any different effect on coppers.

The paring was copper x golden albino (D/D a/a or D/d a/a) which is not the same as white albino (d\d a\a). The dominant dark gene (D) is still present. Since the golden has the dark gene but no melanin (a/a) and the copper produces melanin, you theoretically would have dark, melanin producing offspring (wild types).