fire belly and endlers...

[caprahircus]

My babies:

2 firebellies
3 endler guppies
3 platy's
2 african dwarf frogs
1 peppered cory
2 female betta's
ghost shrimp
2 staghorn bumblebee snails
1 black neon

ZERO fighting and ZERO diseases in 4 years.

This is a verry silly set-up.

ADCF's need at least a temperature of 25 degree celcius. Thats at least 5 degrees to high for the newts. So these to cant live together properly. Ive got both species and I really enjoin them. But I house them in differtent set-ups. My frogs have even bred. But they didn't sex when there were fish in the tank. When i removed the fish (Endlers) the started mating again. So I believe that even the fish stress the frogs.

the corydoras and the neon must be verry lonely in this tank... They both need to live in a school. The betta's and platy's must really stress your newts. I bet that the Newts will show completely change behaviour when the fish are gone. You say that it went well for four years. And you call your pets your babies. Wich means you care about them. But why would you take any risk?

For the sake of your animal's; please, please, please change the way how they live. I hope you do something with this, I made an account specialy to poste this post.

With friendly regards,

Jasper

 

[napoleon]

Would the newts be stressed at 23-24 °C in the summer months?

 

[fishkeeper]

The only fish I might reccomend with newts(occurs with N. viridescens in the wild) would be Heterandria formosa, and perhaps Elassoma sp.(pygmy sunfish). They both stay small and are quite innocuous...the second I'd only reccomend to relatively advanced aquarists due to need for live food. I wouldn't put it above them to leave eggs/larvae alone though. Also, when newts fight during feeding any wounds could be made worse by fish picking at them.

 

[2unyoozhuel]

ah Jasper,

I've stated earlier the sign of stress (yes i did the homework) and the fact that my Chinese Fire bellied newts were not displaying ANY, i repeat, ANY of these signs. Why would you still assume they are stressed? cause you read someones opinion that these housing conditions were unacceptable?
When i first got my newts, i did keep them in a nice squat shaped 10 gallon tank all by themselves for many months, cause i read the same silly internet opinions as most people have. I then said "wait a minute here" and hit the internet, on a major quest for info, and read enough opposing info to decide to try them with other fish. While you've stated that you've had better success after removing the endlers, I on the other hand, found my newts became more active and fed better (when the fish didn't find all the food first LOL) after adding a few fish. Newts seem to have quite a curiosity about them. (my newts are the same sex = no breeding).

I keep my temperature at 70 degrees F. (like 22C ?) this is on the high end of OK for the newts and on the low end of OK for the frogs (and some fish and my plants). I cannot keep the temp lower than 70 anyways (heater doesn't go lower, house far too uneven temp, and I refuse to go to the extent of putting ice in the tank.)
My tetra is lonely i'm sure. my young nephew recently dumped an entire large can of fish food in my tank which killed his companions and all my shrimp. (one tetra was 6 yrs old and was the first fish i ever got, [they're only supposed to live to age 5 max]). My corry could be lonely too, i learned long after about them needing groups. but she is not at all shy, so i may or may not get her a buddy. My platys and betta's ignore my newts completely.

On a simi side note, maybe we should be questioning our assumptions on how newts and other prefer to live. In the wild, newts would share their environment with others, the water temps would fluctuate, they would be subject to predation, and food quantity's fluctuate, etc. Is making a "sterile" uninteresting life really what is good for our babies? I personally feel being able to keep them healthy and active would be considered a complete success, whether the housing environment contradicts what you think you make know or not.

Jasper, For the sake of your animal's; please, please, please rethink the way you force them to live. Question the so called facts you're presented with and allow your mind to think outside the box in order to make intelligent decisions. Thank you for your opinion.

p.s. I expected to stir the pot with my posts but wow. is everyone else having as much fun as me? :happy:

 

[oregon newt]

In the wild, newts would share their environment with others

The problem with this logic is that in the wild, they are not confined to such a small space. Never are they a few inches or feet away from each other 24/7.

 

[caprahircus]

ah Jasper,

Jasper, For the sake of your animal's; please, please, please rethink the way you force them to live. Question the so called facts you're presented with and allow your mind to think outside the box in order to make intelligent decisions. Thank you for your opinion.

p.s. I expected to stir the pot with my posts but wow. is everyone else having as much fun as me? :happy:

You're even tying to make me rediculus? You say we should think about the box for these creatures. Utter bollocks, these creatures are studied for years. People have tried to find how this spiecies should be housed best. And you think that they are wrong? And why rethink the way my newts live? They are doing verry good at the moment.

Its a shame you are so stubborn. Everybody else must be false, right? Why are you having fun at this? Someone tries to help you and your animals and you joke about it. Im not going to argue with you ny further. No use, you are to ignorant.

That said, im not going to waste any more words on you.


And Napoleon, a short time of exposure to a higher temperature wouldn't hurt (healthy) newts to much. They will survive the summer. But finding ways to cool them off a bit always helps.

 

[Tappers]

I think that this type of husbandry falls into whatI would call the 'Pinchy the lobster' syndrome after the technique employed by Homer Simpson!

If nothing dies then they must all be happy..

 

[napoleon]

And Napoleon, a short time of exposure to a higher temperature wouldn't hurt (healthy) newts to much. They will survive the summer. But finding ways to cool them off a bit always helps.

That IS the cooled off temperature The room temp would be around 6°C higher...



So, you guys think it would be ok?

 

[Azhael]

Now now...there is no need to fight xD
I undertstand your position 2unyoozhuel...your experience is that nothing bad happens. But you are ignoring the experience of maaaaaaaaaany other people before you....and that experience is that mixing comes invariably with risks. As i´ve said before, i think there are two kinds of hobbyists.....those who are not willing to take any risks with their animals, and those who are eager to try and see what happens (the latter is more common among new hobbyists).
Your set-up, as you yourself said, is less than ideal for each of the species...they are all in the extreme of the ok range. The way you see it, is that even though it´s the extreme, it´s still ok. They way i and many other people see it is that the constant "extreme" conditions are definitely not ok.
Your newts need a drop of temp in the winter months in order to be perfectly healthy....it doesn´t mean they need to be at 5ºC.....but if you keep them year round at 22ºC with no fluctuation at all...they´ll be stressed.

Stress is a funny thing....you can´t always see it. You say your newts are very active since the fish are in...well....an excess of activity is definitely not very newt-like....it might be a sign.
Also, wether they are getting along or not, mixing african dwarf frogs and newts is not a good idea...the risk of transmission of diseases is something to take into consideration.


Caprahircus...please avoid that kind of burst. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Understand that he is only talking from his experience, which is perfectly ok. The thing is he should probably consider the bast amount of experience other people have....



I completely disagree with your assumption that it should be ok because in the wild they share habitats. You cannot compare wild conditions with captive conditions.
You say the temps fluctuate in the wild....and so they should in captivity!!! You are keeping them at a steady 22ºC which is VERY unnatural for your newts...
Also...predation...you can´t possibly make me think it´s ok to have your newts predated in your own tank....
Food fluctuation...another thing that should go hand in hand with temp fluctuation...you´re missing that too.
You say you want to provide a more natural habitat for the animals...with other species as they would encounter in the wild....well, first off, none of the other species you keep would share a wild habitat with those newts, and secondly, in case you didn´t know, there are many species of newts that actively inhabit fishless water masses, and will leave those that become occupied by them. They can "sense" fish in the water...and they avoid them, so forcing them to live with fish is not very natural either. Your tank in my opinion is way more artificial than one in which only the newts are the inhabitants.

Our goal is not to provide an "sterile" world for our animals...but a safe one. Those are two different things. I want the best for my newts....i want them to display all their natural behaviours, and i want them to breed...but over-all i want them to be safe so that they can live a happy long life.
As said before...mixing comes with risks. Things may happen, or may not...but the risk is there. I personally think taking those risks is very irresponsible, you obvisouly think not hehe.
I understand you having a laugh with this..discussing is interesting and fun! I personally love it. But really....some things have been tested before...you are not exactly a pioneer in this realms....
I´m pretty sure nothing we can say is going to change your mind, so i´ll just leave it with this: your animals might be ok for now....but you just wait....

 

[2unyoozhuel]

yes azhael, i quite know i am a risk taker type. but i think keeping a newt safe by your way of thinking is equivalent to keeping a dog tied up all day to keep it safe. not a good way to live for any animal, but this is my opinion only.

One major problem with assuming that because other people on the internet have problems that there WILL be a problem, is that only people who HAD a problem will be filling the forums with their disaster stories. people without these problems won't be jumping up saying "guess what! i...have no issues" Therefor you tend to only hear about the bad.

I guess i wasn't clear enough. but my newts are not over-active, just more active. they still spend much of their time sitting up on the plants or resting on the bottom.

The main purpose i've been trying to explain, is that these "facts" are often changing, thus many of these ideas (no not all) are just theory's. For eg. Earlier, people were supposed to "spring-clean" once a year by breaking down the entire aquarium and giving it a good scrub. That has recently been proven wrong. Now i hear you're supposed to vary the newts temp, where before temp fluctuation was the enemy. I am NOT saying that all the info on housing is wrong, just that SOME statements aren't quite right or are pure guesses. Everyone should start off EXACTLY as the care sheets says until their experience or free thinking says different.

On a simi side note, maybe we should be questioning our assumptions on how newts and other prefer to live. In the wild, newts would share their environment with others, the water temps would fluctuate, they would be subject to predation, and food quantity's fluctuate, etc. Is making a "sterile" uninteresting life really what is good for our babies?

Ok, my statement has been completely misread. I was trying to explain that the "safe" environment you guys have created is not natural either. Perhaps newts need a bit more excitement in their life, as that is indeed part of the natural environment. I was simply refering to "change". I think fish are like toys to ofset the fact that we have trapped them in a container where they can't escape.

Anyways, this thread has definetely run its course. Thanks all. sorry for the looong posts.

 

[Tappers]

I'm sorry but by all means be a 'risk taking maverick' with your investments, relationships and your own health if you so wish. To inflict poor standards of husbandry on your pets and then try to glamourise it is nothing short of cruelty through ignorance..

Many people start with such 'Noah's Ark' set ups where they have two of every kind of creature but a responsible animal keeper should research the most appropriate conditions for their animals and act on their behalf to duplicate a slice of home from home for their chosen species.

To borrow your own metaphor, it is you who has the 'dog chained' as your newts are unable to manifest their natural behaviours or escape to a more appropriate environment where they are not subjected to conditions suitable for tropical fishes. Not only is your dog chained, you are beating it daily and patting yourself on the back because it aint dead yet!

If you had become bored of a low-activity set up with just newts then you wouldn't be the first. That's no crime but pass the newts on to somebody who has the enthusiasm and drive to care for them properly. They were caught from the wild and shipped halfway around the planet - the very least they deserve is the care and respect of someone who will put their needs before his own ego..

You seem a thoughtful and intelligent person, why not take advantage of the wisdom of those who have repeated these same mistakes before rather than convince yourself that the rest of the world is wrong?

 

[2unyoozhuel]

To Tappers and Caprahircus mostly.

Is not the purpose of this forum and all internet message boards, to be able to express your own idea's openly? No wonder no one dares to express any opposing idea if they are to be attacked in such childish ways. Sad

 

[Tappers]

...I think fish are like toys to ofset the fact that we have trapped them in a container where they can't escape.

Anyways, this thread has definetely run its course. Thanks all. sorry for the looong posts.

I'm sorry but I think it is abundantly clear who is childish here....

If you do not wish to be challenged on your questionable methods then I suggest you do not wave them like a red flag in front of people who, out of a sense of what's right for your livestock, attempt to advise you on the compromises you're making. This is neither childish or 'an attack' and to refer to it as such shows your inability to discuss the subject like an adult.

This is underlined by your attributing your newts enough intellect to be 'bored' but completely ignoring their very real physiological need for seasonal temperature fluctuations - something which you even referred to yourself in an earlier post! I won't even go into their enforced celibacy...

 

[Azhael]

Please stop the not so subtle attack to each other. There´s absolutely no need for that.

2unyoozhuel, you are very right in that this forum is an open place where any ideas can be discussed....but i´m afraid you might be forgetting this is also a long-lived forum which has accumulated a vast amount of reliable information....discarding it is not the best aproach.

Tappers, different opinions, opposite as they might be should not be an excuse to initiate an argument. You have stated your opinion clearly, if he choses to ignore our points of view and stick with his, he is entitled to do so.

Please, try to keep the discussion to what it is....instead of clouding it with personal attacks. It goes against the rules of the forum, and such behaviour will be rewarded with an infraction if it persists...consider this a friendly warning hehe

 

[Tappers]

Please stop the not so subtle attack to each other. There´s absolutely no need for that.

2unyoozhuel, you are very right in that this forum is an open place where any ideas can be discussed....but i´m afraid you might be forgetting this is also a long-lived forum which has accumulated a vast amount of reliable information....discarding it is not the best aproach.

Tappers, different opinions, opposite as they might be should not be an excuse to initiate an argument. You have stated your opinion clearly, if he choses to ignore our points of view and stick with his, he is entitled to do so.

Please, try to keep the discussion to what it is....instead of clouding it with personal attacks. It goes against the rules of the forum, and such behaviour will be rewarded with an infraction if it persists...consider this a friendly warning hehe

Sorry boss, I'll admit that my last post was in response to what I construed as a personal attack - you'll get no more trouble from me

As you say, my opinion is clear and I'll leave this thread to it's fate..

 

[geganewt]

back to original meaning of the thread, I should think darters should be OK with newts, the one I have is very skittish, if any thing moves close to it, it darts away, hence the name :happy:

 

[caprahircus]

I agree to what Tappers said.

And if you have to mix spiecies with you newts, I know some good spiecies wich you can house with newts. These are the freshwater dwarfshrimp species.

There is a wide range of freshwater dwarfshrimps, the most known is the Red Cherry Shrimp. I have some housed with my African Dwarf Clawed Frogs. Im going to introduce some to my cynops soon.