Question: Feeding worms for first time

[Morgan204]

I am going to be feeding our axolotl‘s night crawlers for the first time I was just wondering if I should cut them up? I will obv wash the dirt off of them but I am wondering how big of a piece to start with? they are 14 months old, the axolotl’s. Thank you for your time

 

[Morgan204]

I am going to be feeding our axolotl‘s night crawlers for the first time I was just wondering if I should cut them up? I will obv wash the dirt off of them but I am wondering how big of a piece to start with? they are 14 months old, the axolotl’s. Thank you for your time

Also their current diet is bloodworms

 

[stanleyc]

Salamanders can eat much larger food items than you may think. Here are some pyrrhogasters eating pretty big worms relative to their own size.

and here's a triturus eating a pretty big piece also compared to its size.

I've seen newts and other salamanders eating even larger worms. It might take a while for them to get it down, but they'll surprise you. But if you're not very sure, it never hurts to cut them into smaller pieces.

Those are not my videos by the way.

 

[minorhero]

I cut larger worms so my newts can eat them relatively easily. A good rule of thumb is no bigger than half their body length. But once you do it a few times you will get a good handle on it.

 

[wolfen]

although it is good that you are feeding your axolotl worms please make sure to also feed other meat sources, annelids (worms) don't contain vitamin A (retinol), vitamin A is very important to all amphibian species, lack of vitamin can cause hypovitaminosis A.
"Hypovitaminosis A, given the plethora of organ systems that hypovitaminosis A may affect, it is reasonable to institute vitamin A supplementation of any clinically ill amphibian, particularly ones with signs similar to “short tongue syndrome,” swollen eyelids, evidence of infectious dermatitis, hydrocoelom, or simply “failing to thrive”, the use of mixed dietary carotenoids may also be effective in some species" (copied from amphibian formulary)
vitamin A is found in eyed organisms ie.. shrimp, fish, crickets, flys, mysis etc..

 

[minorhero]

although it is good that you are feeding your axolotl worms please make sure to also feed other meat sources, annelids (worms) don't contain vitamin A (retinol), vitamin A is very important to all amphibian species, lack of vitamin can cause hypovitaminosis A.
"Hypovitaminosis A, given the plethora of organ systems that hypovitaminosis A may affect, it is reasonable to institute vitamin A supplementation of any clinically ill amphibian, particularly ones with signs similar to “short tongue syndrome,” swollen eyelids, evidence of infectious dermatitis, hydrocoelom, or simply “failing to thrive”, the use of mixed dietary carotenoids may also be effective in some species" (copied from amphibian formulary)
vitamin A is found in eyed organisms ie.. shrimp, fish, crickets, flys, mysis etc..

Do you have a source for this information? Because at baseline it doesn't make much sense. Vitamin A is found in numerous vegetables/fruits/meats and does not just come from eyeballs. Every time I've seen someone reporting an animal with a vitamin A deficiency they are feeding it prepared foods that are too old. Since Vitamins are essentially volatile compounds that checks out.

Anyway I found with very little effort sources indicating that worms do indeed have vitamin a:

View of Proximate, vitamin and mineral composition of earthworm (Hyperiodrilus euryaulos) cultured indifferent Animal dung Media

njap.org.ng

Nutritive Evaluation of Earthworms as Human Food

Earthworms have been a traditional medicine in China for at least 2300 years. Because of medicine food homology in China, people have been using earthworms as a food for several centuries. Earthworms are rich in protein and various amino acids; the protein content of earthworm meal was...

www.intechopen.com

 

[wolfen]

because retinol (vitamin A) is a vitamin required for the proper function of the eyes it is most commonly found in eyed organisms (although it is vital for organs as well), I was incorrect though about crickets as they don't seem to contain any detectable amounts of vitamin A (neither do mealworms, waxworms, or superworms) see attach, shrimp on the other hand are packed with it as are fish (good for aquatic species).
it does mention in madders (page 999-1000) that insects are low in vitamin A and should be dusted (also mentions because of shelf life vitamins should be discarded after 6 months).
there is a bit of information online concerning vitamin A and amphibians ie.. Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians.
I will try and re-find the article concerning eyed prey and vitamin A.

 

[wolfen]

additional edit.. house crickets are found to be high in vitamin A, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/acheta-domesticus

 

[wolfen]

found one mention in Blackwell's Five-Minute Veterinary Consult: Reptile and Amphibian, page 375 hypovitaminosis under signalment/history "Feeding invertebrates without eyes"

 

[minorhero]

because retinol (vitamin A) is a vitamin required for the proper function of the eyes it is most commonly found in eyed organisms (although it is vital for organs as well), I was incorrect though about crickets as they don't seem to contain any detectable amounts of vitamin A (neither do mealworms, waxworms, or superworms) see attach, shrimp on the other hand are packed with it as are fish (good for aquatic species).
it does mention in madders (page 999-1000) that insects are low in vitamin A and should be dusted (also mentions because of shelf life vitamins should be discarded after 6 months).
there is a bit of information online concerning vitamin A and amphibians ie.. Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians.
I will try and re-find the article concerning eyed prey and vitamin A.

I mean, I agree vitamin A is important. Actually, all the vitamins are important. But my understanding is that worms (in this case we are definitely talking about earth worms / worms from the order Opisthopora including earthworm, nightcrawler and red wigglers) are a complete food for salamanders/newts. This is certainly been my experience and what I have heard others say and what I found backs that up as well. This thread started off specifically with nightcrawlers so I am definitely not talking about larva from insects like superworms etc.

 

[wolfen]

although worms are full of protein etc.. they aren't a complete diet, because of the importance of vitamin A when it comes to the health of amphibians it is best to be aware of it.
at the end of the day it is up to the owner how and what they feed their pet, I can only advise.
as a side note although there isn't a lot of information concerning vitamin A content of earthworms etc.. it has been noted that the vitamin A content can be increase when fed poultry dung (worms have been looked at as a source of protein for humans and therefore a means of making them a complete diet has also been looked into)

 

[minorhero]

although worms are full of protein etc.. they aren't a complete diet, because of the importance of vitamin A when it comes to the health of amphibians it is best to be aware of it.
at the end of the day it is up to the owner how and what they feed their pet, I can only advise.
as a side note although there isn't a lot of information concerning vitamin A content of earthworms etc.. it has been noted that the vitamin A content can be increase when fed poultry dung (worms have been looked at as a source of protein for humans and therefore a means of making them a complete diet has also been looked into)

The two links I previously posted both gave measurements of earthworm vitamin A. Do you have anything saying those amounts are deficient?

 

[wolfen]

the last attachment I posted has the mineral and vitamin content for earthworms before being enriched.
the link you posted is after being enriched via animal dung.

 

[Morgan204]

additional edit.. house crickets are found to be high in vitamin A, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/acheta-domesticus

Oooookk they can have crickets too? I had no idea that is awesome I will definitely be adding more of a mix. I’ve tried a couple other foods but they never took to them
I will try some of these suggestions from you. Thank you so much

 

[minorhero]

the last attachment I posted has the mineral and vitamin content for earthworms before being enriched.
the link you posted is after being enriched via animal dung.

Actually what you posted does not contain any information on vitamin a. Rather it simply lists "vitamins" and then goes on to describe mineral content from what I can see.

It concludes by saying that earthworms are a great food source and never once warns about them being deficient in anything. Of course half the report is on human consumption and the rest assumes processing into animal feed/powders.

I am honestly not seeing anything you have posted indicating earthworms are a bad feeder or in anyway deficient when feeding newts or salamanders.

That's not to say other feeders are not also good.

 

[wolfen]

the article that I attached previously "Vermiculture as a source of animal protein" (I have attached the table separately) does not mention vitamin A because it is about what earthworms do contain, what the article does have though is a table which lists all the minerals and vitamins that earthworms do contain, again it does not mention vitamin A as they don't contain vitamin A.
I have never said to not feed earthworms, I have never said that earthworms aren't a suitable food source.
what I have said is that they are lacking in a vital vitamin, I have also said because of how vital vitamin A is it is a good idea to supplement the diet with meat sources that contain vitamin A.
lack of vitamin A is mentioned repeatedly in veterinary books as a cause for major concern in captive amphibians.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is possibly having organ issues and not mention it's diet.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is suffering eye issues and not mention it's diet.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is suffering skin issues and not mention it's diet.
and because of how important vitamin A is I will continue to advise feeding eyed food that contain vitamin A, I will advise to feed a varied and balanced diet.
I will advise that worms are NOT a complete diet.
If people choose to take my advice that is up to them.
If people choose to ignore my advice that is up to them.

 

[minorhero]

the article that I attached previously "Vermiculture as a source of animal protein" (I have attached the table separately) does not mention vitamin A because it is about what earthworms do contain, what the article does have though is a table which lists all the minerals and vitamins that earthworms do contain, again it does not mention vitamin A as they don't contain vitamin A.
I have never said to not feed earthworms, I have never said that earthworms aren't a suitable food source.
what I have said is that they are lacking in a vital vitamin, I have also said because of how vital vitamin A is it is a good idea to supplement the diet with meat sources that contain vitamin A.
lack of vitamin A is mentioned repeatedly in veterinary books as a cause for major concern in captive amphibians.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is possibly having organ issues and not mention it's diet.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is suffering eye issues and not mention it's diet.
I cannot claim to try helping a person who's pet is suffering skin issues and not mention it's diet.
and because of how important vitamin A is I will continue to advise feeding eyed food that contain vitamin A, I will advise to feed a varied and balanced diet.
I will advise that worms are NOT a complete diet.
If people choose to take my advice that is up to them.
If people choose to ignore my advice that is up to them.

I saw your chart, but do you believe that this chart which is referring to vermipoweder, is a complete list of all vitamins that earthworms contain or merely that they did not measure vitamin a (or chose not to include vitamin a in this table? or any other vitamin for that matter). It's curious that what you have offered as proof of your argument is a glowing paper of how amazing earthworms are as an animal feed. The other part of the table you chose to include is a list of essential amino acids and comparing them to fish. Earthworms are superior in all aspects. That's a little off subject but since you brought up the table I can't help but mention it.

This might have gone far enough either way. I appreciate that you are coming from a good place and wanting to give people advice on how to best care for their animals. When you first said that worms are not a good source of vitamin a I was immediately curious because my understanding was exactly opposite. I wanted to know if I was in the wrong basing my feeding strategy of my newts around my worm farm. I feed other sources as well including frozen and pellet, but worms have always been what I thought was the best source including but not limited to stimulating my newts to breed when the right times of year come around. I am currently ramping up my breeding/keeping operation and frozen will become prohibitively expensive so I was planning to ramp up my worm farm as well to provide best sources of food going forward, if there was something wrong with this plan, I really wanted to know it as soon as possible.

I feel this is one of those weird situations that mostly exist on the internet where at some point in your past someone mentioned to you that eyeless animals are not a good source of vitamin a and you have internalized that and are now unwilling to reconsider this statement in light of evidence to the direct contrary or even acknowledge that your information might be incomplete.

If you still care about this and are ever able to find information that earth worms are a bad source of vitamin a, I am definitely interested in knowing it so I can correct my feeding strategy. In the meantime, the information I found indicates to me that earthworms are a complete food source.

 

[wolfen]

look up on google mineral and vitamin content of earthworms, you will find that the table attached in previous post will pop up, that is because that is the mineral and vitamin content of earthworms and as you will notice they don't contain vitamin A.
the reason vitamin A deficiency came to my attention was actually due to this site, in particular axolotls that where suffering edema due to possible organ failure, so I buried myself in vet books looking for a possible answer or clue at least, that is where I came across vitamin A deficiency (hypovitaminosis A) and the sentence " Feeding invertebrates without eyes", I also found that in nearly all vet medicine books vitamin A was recognised as a cause for concern in captive amphibians.
for reference the vets books I mainly use are... Blackwell's Five-Minute Veterinary Consult: Reptile and Amphibian, Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, BSAVA Small Animal Formulary, Part B: Exotic Pets, Exotic Animal Medicine for the Veterinary Technician, Mader's Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery, I also at times reference published science articles.
I'm a bit old school in that I would rather research a subject rather than rely on word of mouth, although if someone does pass on information I will research it to asses the validity.
now you have asked for proof which I have provided now I ask for proof from you, information that shows that earthworms without enrichment, a base line assessment which shows that they do indeed contain vitamin A.

 

[Ziti]

I am going to be feeding our axolotl‘s night crawlers for the first time I was just wondering if I should cut them up? I will obv wash the dirt off of them but I am wondering how big of a piece to start with? they are 14 months old, the axolotl’s. Thank you for your time

I have found that the Canadian nightcrawlers were way too big for my Ziti. When I heard my 23 yr old son cry out, I knew something was wrong because he had to cut them. They were way too big. It they aren't Canadian nightcrawlers you are good to go, that's what we feed Ziti and he loves them

 

[GoreBrain]

When feeding them night crawlers for the first time, it's generally a good idea to start with smaller pieces to see how they handle it. You can gradually increase the size if they seem to manage well. As for cutting them up, it might depend on the size of your axolotls' mouths. Just make sure the pieces are manageable for them to swallow comfortably. By the way, if you're looking for more tips on caring for your aquatic pals, you might find some helpful resources in online grooming courses at Veterinary Schools U https://www.veterinaryschoolsu.com/grooming/online-courses/.