Euthanasia by ethyl alcohol

[Jake]

Nobody is saying a caudate would survive being squashed with a rock.

Oh really?

...however any one who has any experience of severely injured amphibians (eg. squashed by cars) will know that they can take quite a long time do die even with massive injuries that would have killed a mammal instantly. For these reasons, I would not recommend this as a method of euthanasia and do not think that we should be advocating it.

...because it sure seems like that's what was said here.

The point is that even very traumatic deaths are not instantaneous for some reptiles and amphibians, which opens the possibility of the animal suffering. I´ve seen toads convulsion and gape after being half driven over, snakes continue to move after being beheaded, etc. I think that´s essentially the problem.

Ok, so you've seen animals that were half run over still living/suffering. That really has nothing to do with my original statement. I said to smash them with a brick. That means crush and flatten the head, body, tail,everything. I never said to behead the animal or smash it part of the way and wait for it to die. Does a fly suffer when you smash it? No, and neither would anything else. It's one quick blow to end it all. No need to soak them in a solution and wait any length of time for it to die (probably suffering to some degree depending on the method used), so how can anyone consider my method inhumane? I'd rather be quickly crushed to death than soaked in alcohol if I were a sick/injured salamander. With my method it's "lights out", the other methods mentioned take much longer, why would any living creature with nerves choose a slow death over a quick one?

Many creatures, humans included, can convulse after death. That doesn't necessarily mean they are suffering, it's caused by electrical impulses in the nerves. Gecko tails often move after being detatched, sometimes spider legs do as well. In living creatures those same impulses from the nerves send signals to the brain to let the animal know it is in pain, if the animals is no longer living (or in the gecko's case the tail is no longer connected to the brain by nerves) and it's brain has been completely destroyed, then how do you figure it would suffer? That's impossible.

 

[iSuzie]

I agree with jake on this matter but id also like to add a few things.

If you can not get to a vet, or afford one or find one that knows what they are doing then a hard object to the back of the head followed by pithing is best way and the fastest also most humaine way to euthanize aquatic animals.
It is done by using something hard and twice as big as the animals is, it is also essential to decapitate the animal and then use the pithing procedure. The pithing procedure is essential to prevent hypoxia and to destroy the brain matter that can possibly send pain signals if not done properly. Pithing is done by decapitate followed by inserting a Sharpe knive, or sharpe instrument into the brain, while this sound horrible it can be done within seconds. First simple place the animal in a bag, followed by a hard hit or two to the back of the head and rest of the body, followed by pithing to make sure the animal is dead and not suffering or is susceptible to hypoxia.

Another way i believe is humane is to use clove oil because it is a pain killer and they don't feel anything at all, yes it takes 15-20 minutes and it is hard on the owner, but anyway this is done will be hard and un-pleasant.

If you combine the two by using clove oil first followed by a hard hit it would be guarenteed to be the all round best choice in euthanasia, this is what I do.

But remember if you DONT know how to euthanize an animal correctly or have dout when doing it, dont do it, find a vet or someone that DOES know what they are doing, remember aquarium stores or other breeders near you may have the knowledge or equipment you dont and may be willing to help. There is always other options opposed to just winging it and causing pain without realising it.

I also hope this post didn't come across bad in anyway as its not directed at anyone or anyone's posts just my opinion on the matter

 

[Azhael]

Newtboyuk is talking about the death not being instantaneous, which is also what i was refering to. I don´t think that counts as surviving. If you squash them enterily, yeah, no problem there, instantaneous death. However if the blow is not sufficient or is applied wrong then you have a terminally damaged animal in pain. And that´s my concern about squashing caudates, not necessarily about you doing it. As newtboyuk says, they can take stuff that would end a mammal instantly, it´s simply a different wiring and different physiology.
I wasn´t trying to equate a lizard´s tail with an animal still feeling pain after terminal damage. The tail doesn´t have a brain to "cause" any pain. I´m talking about the bit that still has a brain attached. If the brain is not fully destroyed (and caudates can take greater cephalic damage than we can) then we simply can´t know if the animal is suffering or not and that´s an eventuality that´s best avoided. And did i call your method inhumane? Unpleasent, surely, but i didn´t pass any judgement on your practices.
I´ll take sedation and painless euthanasia over traumatic termination any day...but that´s just me.

 

[Mark]

One thing is clear - the cc article does need updating with regards to the ethyl alcohol method. I feel we should remove it as an acceptable option.

I think the reluctance to take newts to a vet to be euthanised is simply a size thing rather than a cost issue. The shrink wrapped meat society of today has left us terrified of slaughtering anything larger than a mouse but the average person looks at a newt and thinks "I should be able to handle that". People of my parents generation were happily pulling chicken and rabbit necks. If there's a quick, painless and humane method for amphibians that can be carried out at home I would always choose that over a trip to a vet.

The clove oil method seems well accepted as a humane method of euthanising fish and is very accessible for a newt hobbyist. Can anyone provide details or the procedure for newts using clove oil?

Mark N and Liam - really valuable input from a veterinary perspective. Much appreciated.

 

[newtboyuk]

Jacob:

I think you may have misinterpreted my post - i have never stated that an amphibian will survive a bash on the head with a rock/brick/hammer/implement. The question is one of how well it is done and as a result how long the animal takes to die. I have no doubts that you are confident and experienced enough to euthanase an animal in one blow. I think what you need to bear in mind is that not everyone else on a public forum is and that people may try this and cause animals to suffer as a result.


Otterwoman:

Poikilothermic animals are indeed different. Mammals are able to regulate body temperature and become hypothermic at a core body temperature that is still much higher than that of the environment. A mammal will lose consciousness - often becoming sleepy and comatose - long before the crystallization of ice can occur in the blood and tissues. (In fact in people there is sometimes a state of paradoxical hyperthermia where the brain is fooled into thinking it is actually too warm). Reptile and amphibians instead go into a state of torpor where they slow down and are unable to move but are still conscious. As their blood and tissues are only a few degrees warmer than their surrounds, crystallisation occurs whilst the animal is still able to feel it.


Rodrigo/Azhael:

I'm afraid I have no experience with urethane and can't really say much about it - I understand it was widely used for field studies and in laboratories and that it worked quite well. The problem is that it was found to be quite carcinogenic and easily absorbed through the skin of handlers. It has largely been replaced by other drugs for reasons of human safety.


Eljorjo:

I'm sorry that your experience of vets has been poor. I would like to think that my clients aren't wasting their money and their time and that I'm not too ignorant! Amphibian training makes up a miniscule part of most veterinary courses - vets who are keen to work with these animals spend a large amount of their own (very limited) spare time and money to gain the knowledge and experience required. I think it should be remembered that many vets interested in amphibia have kept and bred them for years. While their husbandry knowledge for certain species may not compare to someone who has kept that particular species for decades, they do have important knowledge of disease and veterinary procedures and access to diagnostic tests and appropriate treatments which is very relevant. Its worth bearing in mind that any good vet who feels out of their league when dealing with an unfamiliar species has the ability to contact a vet with more experience and discuss cases with them. Countless amphibians get ill or die in the hands of private keepers and very often people never find out why - I think that vets working with keepers have a very important role to play.

As a vet dealing with a range of "exotic" species, I frequently see the results of well meaning owners taking internet/petshop/man-in-the-pub advice and causing unnecessary suffering and death to their animals. Caudata.org has been a wonderful resource for caudate knowledge - years of combined experience from around the world has resulted in information that can be found nowhere else and I think that it is important we ensure that the advice we give is the best possible.

 

[Jake]

Newtboyuk is talking about the death not being instantaneous, which is also what i was refering to. I don´t think that counts as surviving. If you squash them enterily, yeah, no problem there, instantaneous death. However if the blow is not sufficient or is applied wrong then you have a terminally damaged animal in pain..

That's why I said if you have bad aim (or are too much of a pansy) and somehow can't manage to completely smash a 3 inch animal with a brick, then have a friend who doesn't have such bad aim (or isn't such a pansy) do it for you. Newts don't have shells, their bodies are rather soft and squishy, their skulls are not made of titanium, so if you smash it completely the brain will be destroyed.

As newtboyuk says, they can take stuff that would end a mammal instantly, it´s simply a different wiring and different physiology..

Explain this further please. How is their "wiring and pysiology" different from anything else that can feel?

I have always been under the impression that any living organism with a nervous system works the same way: nerves trasmit messages to the brain to let it know what any part of the body is feeling. If the brain is destroyed, and the nerves are no longer connected to it, then there is no way for those signals to be sent. Are iSuzie and I the only 2 here who understand the concept of "COMPLETELY SMASHED"?

I wasn´t trying to equate a lizard´s tail with an animal still feeling pain after terminal damage. The tail doesn´t have a brain to "cause" any pain. I´m talking about the bit that still has a brain attached. If the brain is not fully destroyed (and caudates can take greater cephalic damage than we can) then we simply can´t know if the animal is suffering or not and that´s an eventuality that´s best avoided.

You're not understanding my point. I used the gecko tail as an example. Pay close attention now. If the gecko's tail has been detatched from the body, the nerves can no longer send signals to the brain. Since those nerves are no longer connected the gecko can't feel if a bird is eating it's detatched tail even though the tail may writhe about. It is the same as if the brain of any animal is destroyed the nerves are no longer communicating with it meaning it is no longer feeling pain. I never said to partially smash the animal. I said to crush them completely.

 

[JacksonR]

Brain death is all that matters. Nerves in reptiles/amphibians will move after the brain has died. They are not "aware" of pain at that point.

The other day I found a snake who's head was run over completely, but the body still moved when touched.

I definitely wouldn´t recommend alcohol, it clearly causes distress.
Urethane was mentioned as an anaesthetic for amphibians in one of my courses, and benzocaine as one of the standard chemicals used for euthanasia. What do you think of urethane? would it be acceptable to use it in conjuction with a traumatic method of euthanasia (with a fully anaesthetized animal, of course)? And is benzocaine available to the public?

Nobody is saying a caudate would survive being squashed with a rock. The point is that even very traumatic deaths are not instantaneous for some reptiles and amphibians, which opens the possibility of the animal suffering. I´ve seen toads convulsion and gape after being half driven over, snakes continue to move after being beheaded, etc. I think that´s essentially the problem.

I´m personally not totally against a "natural death" in the sense of for example, like Molch says, allowing deformed larvae to be predated. I can´t find a reason that invalidates it as inmoral. However, i fully agree that when it comes to artifitially ending an animal´s life we should strive to use the fastest most painless method available to us, and i don´t think alcohol qualifies, so thank you very much for offering a professional perspective, Liam and Newtboyuk, i too apreciate your contribution very much.

 

[Greatwtehunter]

I forgot to mention in my first post that I apply the Orajel (Benzocaine) the length of the belly and throat. I've never had it take longer than 3 minutes to kill a caudate.

 

[evut]

Justin, what happens after you apply it? And how much do you use?

 

[monique]

I forgot to mention in my first post that I apply the Orajel (Benzocaine) the length of the belly and throat. I've never had it take longer than 3 minutes to kill a caudate.

I used oraljel once. But only on the back and not on the belly. Do you have the oraljel extra strong? I can't buy it in the netherlands and ordered it by internet in britain. With grown up (big) newts it's my intention to go to the vet. I went to her once with small juveniles and she said put them in the fridge and after a long time in the freezer. No way! I hit them with a brick but it's horrifying (for me :-(

 

[kiathepooch]

Ffs just lost my entire reply!
I'm intrigued with the orajel method of euthanasia (I'm a pansy so no brick deaths from me) even though I have a very good vet I'm not sure their price would relate to the size of the newt,back to orajel,in the uk is it available without prescription?
Random question is there anything a dentist would have available that could euthanise newts as quickly and painfully as possible?


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.750701,-2.480926

 

[monique]

Ffs just lost my entire reply!
I'm intrigued with the orajel method of euthanasia (I'm a pansy so no brick deaths from me) even though I have a very good vet I'm not sure their price would relate to the size of the newt,back to orajel,in the uk is it available without prescription?
Random question is there anything a dentist would have available that could euthanise newts as quickly and painfully as possible?


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I am here: Google Maps

I don't want to promote orajel, it was for me the only option. Why i don't want to promote it:

1. The vet is always the first option
2. It is a non-validated method! There is experience with benzocaine but in orajel are more ingredients like clove oil, sorbic acid, polyetylene glycol, sodium sacharine and spearmint flavour. So there is no quarantee, in my opinion, that the animal is not suffering.

 

[ozarkhellbender]

There are several interesting subtopics within this topic. Something I would like to touch on is freezing as a method of euthanasia. I would be against using freezing as a method of euthanasia, not because I believe it is inhumane, but because I doubt it's effectiveness. It was mentioned that crystallization of ice in the blood and tissues would cause pain to the caudates. Most caudates come from temperate climates where they can experience temperatures well below zero degrees Celsius. So, where are all the caudates dying slow, painful deaths at? It would not surprise me at all if caudates had some kind of mechanism that allowed them to suppress or "switch off" pain receptors below a certain temperature. Some caudates actually seem to benefit from having their body temperature drop below zero. Such low temperatures could be necessary to stimulate breeding behavior in some caudates. So, there is my two cents.

 

[Azhael]

Their wiring and physiology is not completely different from anything else that can feel. I´d apreciate it if you could stop trying to pick sentences out of contest just to find something we can squabble about. We are both vertebrates, we obviously share a great deal of characteristics in brain physiology and how nerves are arranged and how they work, but our brains are not enterily identical.
There are some differences in distribution, location and morphology of neurons, how they behave, or react and the internal biochemistry. They can also regenerate parts of their brains, something that we can certainly not do, which to me is a pretty impressive physiological difference.

We keep missing the point. I know that the body of a snake will continue to move after the the head is separated. That´s not what i´m talking about! I´m worried about the bit with a brain, not the rest. You know how an amputee can feel a missing limb, and even feel pain even though there is no limb to send stimuli? That´s more like what i was talking about. The brain can still potentially feel pain even if the rest of the body is damaged beyond recovery.

Justin, thank you for the info.

Ozark, most caudates do not experience temperatures well below zero. They inhabit microhabitats that are freeze-free. They will die if their bodies become frozen and this is something that defenitely happens in the wild, both to terrestrial and aquatic species.
However, there are exceptions like Salamandrella keyserlingii which can survive freezing temperatures, but that´s what it is, an amazing exception.

 

[Mark]

I don’t think we should get too bogged down in the trauma debate. If the skull and cranium can be destroyed confidently in one blow I don’t think anyone would argue that the animal suffered. If we were to advocate it as a humane method we assume that everyone has the capability to complete the task competently which I believe would be irresponsible on our behalf. Newts move and not everyone has a good aim or the power to do the job properly. There’s a risk (however small) of serious suffering.

My money is on the clove oil and benzocaine methods, the latter of which is quite well described in the article: Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia I think it would be good to review and revise these two options. Are there any updates we could make to these to make the instructions more complete?

Benzocaine. Orajel® (and other painkillers containing benzocaine*) appear to rapidly anesthetize and euthanize amphibians. This method has not yet been accepted by the National Research Council on Pain and Distress in Laboratory Animals, probably due to how recently the publications involving these products have come out. Products containing either 7.5% or 20% benzocaine have been shown to be effective in the euthanasia of amphibians. The original descriptions of this procedure had the gel containing the benzocaine applied to the head of the amphibian, however it has been shown that it may be more effective if applied to the ventral (belly) surface of the animal (this may actually be most effective in anurans, which have pelvic patches, rather than caudates). A 5-mm drop applied to the ventral surface of a Eurycea quadridigitataresulted in relaxation and death in less than one minute (Chen and Combs, 1999).
*Note about benzocaine products: Choose a product that does not contain large amounts of alcohol. The alcohol in these preparations is usually denatured alcohol. The chemicals used as denaturants can be irritants. In general, this means you should use a gel or paste, not a liquid preparation. Read labels carefully, including the "inactive ingredients".

Clove oil. Clove oil is accepted by the AMVA as an agent for euthanizing fish, and it is likely to be effective and humane in ampibians. It is available for sale at pet shops and from drug stores as Eugenol, a remedy for oral pain.

 

[Azhael]

If we were to advocate it as humane method we assume that everyone has the capability to complete the task competently which I believe would be irresponsible on our behalf.

Exactly the point i was trying to make, thank you, Mark.

 

[ozarkhellbender]

Ozark, most caudates do not experience temperatures well below zero. They inhabit microhabitats that are freeze-free. They will die if their bodies become frozen and this is something that defenitely happens in the wild, both to terrestrial and aquatic species.
However, there are exceptions like Salamandrella keyserlingii which can survive freezing temperatures, but that´s what it is, an amazing exception.

Azhael, I am sorry, but that is not true. Most North American caudates DO experience freezing temperatures on a yearly basis. I can say this, not only my personal experience, but also from the experience of others here who are observing these species in their native habitat. I have found Plethodon and Eurycea species alive and well at or below freezing temperatures just below the snow. I know of people who regularly find Pseudotriton ruber in freezing temperatures alive and well. Everyone who I've talked to that breeds Notophthalmus viridescens assures me that they must be exposed to a period of freezing temperatures in order to stimulate breeding behavior.You are also going to have stream-side species like Desmognathus spp. and Rhyacotriton spp. that also experience freezing temperatures annually. Let us hop the "Big Pond" and look at species over on your side of the world. You mentioned Salamandrella keyserlingii, there is also the ever common Ichthyosaura alpestris. The list could go on. These are just some examples of species fully capable of surviving freezing temperatures.

 

[JacksonR]

Even if benzo, etc numbs the pain it still takes a few minutes. Just that the animal is aware that it is dying is probably distressing to it. A blow to the head is quick and painless.

I don’t think we should get too bogged down in the trauma debate. If the skull and cranium can be destroyed confidently in one blow I don’t think anyone would argue that the animal suffered. If we were to advocate it as a humane method we assume that everyone has the capability to complete the task competently which I believe would be irresponsible on our behalf. Newts move and not everyone has a good aim or the power to do the job properly. There’s a risk (however small) of serious suffering.

My money is on the clove oil and benzocaine methods, the latter of which is quite well described in the article: Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia I think it would be good to review and revise these two options. Are there any updates we could make to these to make the instructions more complete?

 

[Molch]

I think we have to distinguish between freezing temps in the environment and the actual temperature in the animals' tissues. What Az is saying is that most likely most caudates can not let their tissue temperatures go much below freezing. A caudate active on or below snow may have a body temperature a few degrees above freezing.

After all, the main reason that amphibian and reptile species are so few in areas of permafrost is that they can NOT find frost-free refugia there during winter. Only a few species, like the wood frog, have adaptations to survive freezing

 

[Azhael]

And that is indeed my point, Molch. Even if air temperature is very low and surface temperature too, you won´t find those species at a microclimate that is below 0ºC (or perhaps some species slightly less than that) or meassure body temperatures any lower. They appear to be at freezing temperatures, but they aren´t.
I can attest from the experience of others that Ichthyosaura alpestris does not tolerate freezing. They happily tolerate 2ºC but they won´t survive if their tissues go below 0.
For example, close to home, the spanish subspecies Salamandra salamandra almanzoris inhabits an area that is completely covered with snow for many months. They, however, shelter below ground where the soil doesn´t freeze and wait. Right during the spring melt , when temperature goes reliably above 0ºC during the day or night, they emerge to lay their larvae. You can even see them on the snow as if sunbathing. Their bodies are never exposed to below 0ºC. The same habitat is used by Bufo bufo, Rana iberica y Pelophylax perezi and neither of those can tolerate freezing either.

It´s also the same reason why you can see terrestrial caudates about during cold periods, but not during freezing periods. They are safe in a freeze-free microenvironment.

Surviving being frozen is a trick that few species can manage