Europeans succeed with Ambystomatid spec.

[MarioR]

MarioR great success! Of course the few serious US keepers envy your success. Maybe newt/salamander hobbyists here aren't so determined to breed Amybystoma because they can be purchased seasonally or collected as you mentioned.

Recently saw a video of California Tiger Salamanders breeding and laying eggs. It was motivational! Maybe you seen the video also?....... Ha I'm sure you did.

It's ok to envy me :wacko:

Yeah, I saw the video to and still watch it every day. I also heard of another one, which shows some larvae hanging around

@Frogeyes: Is there a possibility to get access to this paper?
Sounds interesting and I think I didn't read it yet.

Regards,
Mario

 

[John]

Mario, I think it's fantastic that you and others there have had so much success in breeding these animals.

However, since I found out about your breeding Ambystoma californiense a while ago, I have struggled to understand how such a protected species could find its way to Europe legally. I only hope that members of this forum were not involved.

 

[FrogEyes]

Yes, if memory serves, Ambystoma tigrinum occurs in eastern TX.

For those who want further information on the A.macrodactylum complex, send me your email addresses. Off the top of my head, there is one recent article, one older one, and a thesis or two. My future post on the subject will discuss assignment of names and the concordance/discordance of data between studies.

I am moving to MN because that is more practical at this time than my fiance, her kids, and our son to move here. It doesn't hurt that I'm friends with the owner of RAD Zoo, which is a 20 minute walk from the house. His display is likely to temporarily increase by about 20% in the next couple weeks!

Re - Ambystoma californiense complex: I haven't read everything on the protection of this species complex, but it has suffered from a severe LACK of protection [or at least very limited protection], and California Fish and Game had to be sued to list or relist the "species". I had access to A.californiense here a number of years ago. I don't recall exactly when, but I would say 10-15 years ago. I could track down the month and year if I really wanted to. I probably have pictures, but I haven't run across them so far.

 

[MarioR]

Species discussions are interesting :happy:

What about Ambystoma mavortium utahense, proserpine and slateri?
There is almost none information about the status of those (sub-)species.

@John: I don't think so. They were offered to me and I bought them - that's all.
My target was to care for them as good as I can and it was the ultimate success to breed them. I think the species is save now - but unfortunately habitat loss is still a big problem for them in nature

Regards,
Mario

 

[Cole Grover]

Species discussions are interesting :happy:

What about Ambystoma mavortium utahense, proserpine and slateri?
There is almost none information about the status of those (sub-)species.

@John: I don't think so. They were offered to me and I bought them - that's all.
My target was to care for them as good as I can and it was the ultimate success to breed them. I think the species is save now - but unfortunately habitat loss is still a big problem for them in nature

Regards,
Mario

Genetic and biochemical research I've read indicates that subspecific recognition of various color/pattern variants within Ambystoma mavortium is unwarranted. The population called stebbinsi might present a different scenerio, and warrant the recognition of two subspecies within A. mavortium: A. mavortium mavortium (including mavortium, diaboli, melanostictum, and a host of less-frequently used subspecific names like those you mention) and A. mavortium stebbinsi. Some of the animals in the southewstern US that are frequently seen and referred to as A. mavortium may actually belong to A. rosaceum or velasci.

Habitat loss in California is a major problem. Genetic swamping by mavortium (and tigrinum?) is a major problem, too.

-Cole

Oh, and here's another habitat shot for A. mavortium, this one from here in southcentral Montana, for those of you who enjoy such things... Perhaps it also serves as an inspiration to those inclined to preserve the genetics of populations adapted to distinct local environments. Pools that collect at the bottom of the ravines in the photo after heavy (and infrequent) rains are used for breeding by A. mavortium, Pseudacris, Spea, and the occasional Lithobates pippiens!

Another, showing said Lithobates.

 

[MarioR]

Genetic and biochemical research I've read indicates that subspecific recognition of various color/pattern variants within Ambystoma mavortium is unwarranted. The population called stebbinsi might present a different scenerio, and warrant the recognition of two subspecies within A. mavortium: A. mavortium mavortium (including mavortium, diaboli, melanostictum, and a host of less-frequently used subspecific names like those you mention) and A. mavortium stebbinsi. Some of the animals in the southewstern US that are frequently seen and referred to as A. mavortium may actually belong to A. rosaceum or velasci.

Thanks for that!
According to Frogeyes A. m. melanostictum could also be a colour variant of A.m. mavortium, so it might be invalid in future like diaboli. We'll see!

A. velasci is a species complex itself so I think it is not useful to include more species to that complex.
Taxonomy seems to get more and more complicated if it comes to Ambystoma. But Mexico got much more messed up species

Regards,
Mario

 

[FrogEyes]

Thanks for that!
According to Frogeyes A. m. melanostictum could also be a colour variant of A.m. mavortium, so it might be invalid in future like diaboli. We'll see!

Not exactly. I was indicating that A.m.melanostictum includes a host of variation which includes what we identify as A.m.mavortium and A.m.diaboli. Basically, diaboli and mavortium seem to be edge-of-range populations of melanostictum, and thus have only a small portion of the variability. However, the oldest name is mavortium, or it would make more sense to lump all three into melanostictum. From where I am right now, I could probably find "mavortium", "diaboli", and perhaps lime, olive, yellow, or orange "melanostictum", simply by driving for an hour or two. I might even find all this variation in one pond, but I doubt it.

 

[Cole Grover]

Not exactly. I was indicating that A.m.melanostictum includes a host of variation which includes what we identify as A.m.mavortium and A.m.diaboli. Basically, diaboli and mavortium seem to be edge-of-range populations of melanostictum, and thus have only a small portion of the variability. However, the oldest name is mavortium, or it would make more sense to lump all three into melanostictum. From where I am right now, I could probably find "mavortium", "diaboli", and perhaps lime, olive, yellow, or orange "melanostictum", simply by driving for an hour or two. I might even find all this variation in one pond, but I doubt it.

^2. I'm with you, squared.

Enjoy Minnesota, too. Plenty of great field herping in the region.

-Cole

 

[FrogEyes]

I will sadly be in Steele County, which is more or less no-man's land for herps! However, with RAD Zoo right there, Jamie will finally have someone to herp with!

I was contemplating driving through western Montana on the way there, but that adds far too much time and distance to the route, and at the wrong time of year. I really am fond of the Rockies and points west, but double the count of species in one state isn't bad, nor is being two days drive from almost anywhere.