Cynops ensicauda popei/C. orientalis morphs.

Justin: On this advice...are you talking of new morphs? I haven't tried raising morphs semiaquatically before. One experiment I did with new orientalis some time ago resulted in a few drowning. I'm thinking of keeping them on land for a month or two and then seeing of they will go back to the water. The land ones are so darn cute though. Good idea on the caps!

One of the larvae has come out a bit odd looking and I think he deserves a seperate thread.
 
I would try it with some of them now, give them a few days, and if they don't take to it move them back to a terrestrial cage for now. The ones that do take will grow very rapidly. I normally give them a few months, then try them again. The second trial I am a bit harder on them to switch and only feed in the water (just an inch or so of it), and if they get a bit too skinny I pull out again. I didn't have any drownings, but some of the most stubborn got a bit skinny for a little while, but then plumped up again. When I had them switching over, I had just a bit of cork bark, but I had smaller islands of plant as well. As they get more used to the water and are feeding, I raise it about an inch ever other week until it is around 5 or 6 inches. This is just what worked for me, I am by no means experienced (other than I did switch over a good number this year) so you may want to consult other people. Ed Kowalski, whom I will refer to the godfather of the raising aquatic, helped me a great deal.
j
 
Interesting advice Justin. Yesterday I voted on moving an orientalis morph to a semiaquatic setup and decided to pop in 2 ensicauda on whim. I had one in their which seemed about to take but then a day later crawled up the side. Perhaps if I left him/her in there they would have made the switch but I decided to remove him/her. The other swam around in the water for a little but is now also up the side but its skin in still wet looking. The Cynops orientalis looks like it will work...which is a relief as it had been raised terrestrially for almost 10 months. Its the bigger orientalis in the previous photos.
 
The method as far as I know was first printed in an article by Sparreboom which is what gave me the idea to try it.

I have excellant success using it for C. cyanurus, C. pyrrogaster, and I am trying a pretty good sized batch of C. ensicauda popei with it right now. Part of the trick does appear to be to stress the metamorphs slightly with a lack of food as well as keeping the water very shallow which enables them to return to the aquatic stage much quicker. This then allows a much larger growth spurt( in my opinion) after they return to the aquatic stage.

Ed
 
Ed...how shallow is very shallow? I have it at maybe a centimeter right now(the morphs while sunk in the water have to tip up on 2 legs to get a breath). The orientalis morph and an ensicauda morph I'm trying alternate between times of being aquatic and being terrestrial...that is stuck to the walls of the container and repelling water when put back into the water. Is this going ok? They have shown some interest in food underwater also.
 
Hi Joseph,

That is about right in my experience. Just keep an eye on them. Once they start feeding underwater the growth rate is surprisingly fast.

Ed
 
Also, is it bad to put them back into the water or on islands in it when they crawl up the walls of the container?

I've had a few casualties unfortunately in the second container I set up for them. The substrate in this container stuck to the bodies of the morphs alot. They didn't seem to mind but then I found 2 dead. The skin of the ones in this setup also was not as "dry" looking as those in the first(pictured) setup. Moved them back into the original container and so far so good for them. I'm not sure what caused that as both substrates came from the same source...the first was used longer however.
 
I push them back into the water from the sides when I feed them...
Not sure what the problem with the substrate could be...
Ed
 
I have some C. cyanurus morphs that became aquatic on their own, but from today I'm trying to get the ones I moved to land to become aquatic also. Most have crawled up the sides of the tank. Seems I might have had one drown, though I'm not certain that was the cause.
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65479.jpg
 
More in this corner:

65484.jpg
 
Here's one of the ones that naturally went aquatic without going through a terrestrial phase to speak of:

65487.jpg
 
Ah yes a familiar sight. I'll say it again cyanurus morphs are really funky looking. Almost remind me of how the karelinii look as babies...weird that this species would be one of the easier ones to raise and that the most common one gives me a lot of problems.

Welp I successfully got the older Cynops orientalis morph(est. 10 months) into the water and he/she is feeding. 4 of the 6 ensicauda that were transferred to the second setup have died...the 2 left I'm unsure of whether they will make it. One is in the aquatic setup and spends most of his/her time lolly gagging around near the moss...pretty much aquatic...but has no interest in food. The other one is terrestrial and appears more vigorous...but his/her skin is still smooth looking. All the others are well and some big ones are starting to pull away from the rest growthwise.
 
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Joseph S on Thursday 25 May 2006 - 03:56 (#POST96543):</font>

I've had a few casualties unfortunately in the second container I set up for them. The substrate in this container stuck to the bodies of the morphs alot. They didn't seem to mind but then I found 2 dead. The skin of the ones in this setup also was not as "dry" looking as those in the first(pictured) setup.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
This is interesting to me, Joseph. I have noticed the same thing with some of my popei morphs. The ones with wet-looking skin, placed into a terrestrial setup, sometimes die. In my case, I have the suspicion (I'm not sure about this) that these specific ones were perhaps moved too soon out from the "morphing tank" to the terrestrial setup. I think this is less likely if I leave the morphs in the morphing tank until their skin begins to look dry (a day or two).

I am beginning to be curious about what controls skin dryness/wetness. This seems to be a critical factor in the behavior of Cynops newts under a lot of different circumstances.
 
Jenn: Couldn't be your hypothesis as these newts had that felt looking skin before being moved to the second setup(moved from first setup to second)...but I have noticed the problem you mentioned with orientalis morphs which take a while before converting over to rougher textured skin. I think the newts can change skin texture based upon humidity/moisture level of the enviroment...as shown in the shed sequence in the photo gallery. I also wonder why/how the skin repels water...when you dribble water on their backs it turns into globules sorta like what happens on waxpaper.

(Message edited by TJ on May 29, 2006)
 
A number of amphibians control water loss (which would be a major difference between aquatic and terrestrial morphs) through the use of mucopolysaccarides.

Ed

(and an older article that covers some of this can be found at the following citation
Comp Biochem Physiol. 1965 Jul;15(3):423-7.
Water permeability and lipid content of amphibian skin.
Schmid WD, Barden RE.)

Ed
 
So the ones that crawl up the glass like this, can those just be left alone? They're still up there. Would they fall back down before getting too dry? I'm not very comfortable with this experiment and am contemplating moving them back to a terrestrial environment if this keeps up....
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How long does this process generally take? Days or weeks? Must one wait until they're so hungry they've no option but to enter the water?
 
Hi Tim,

I have waited several weeks on occasion for them to reenter the water to feed. A seperate method along the same lines I am currently trying is to keep the water only as deep as a little over half the newt's body depth and several pieces that they can get mostly out of the water. This seems to cause more of them to be willing to feed in the water a little more.

Ed
 
Thanks Ed. I think I'm lower the water level. It's about 2 cm now but there is plenty of java moss in there.

Have you experienced deaths from drowning, desiccation or malnutrition with cyanurus under these conditions?
 
With the cyanurus no, I have had no losses to any of those causes (unless you count dessication due to escapes). When I tried this with pyrrogaster, I lost a few to (apparent) drowning but very few overall (I lost most to due failing to make sure the lid was secure and they got out through a corner and dessicated).
I am currently trying the shallower method mentioed above with some C. e. popei and have had no losses so far.
The trick really seems to be in the temperature (cool) and stressing them without food for a few weeks. Yeager related to me that he had one stubborn popei (Jen the runt) that would not switch over for him but it switched over within about three weeks after he left it in my care (you currently cannot tell it from the older animals in the clutch).

Ed
 
Actually that one switched over for me before, but it was the last one to do so. I had problems with about half of the C. pyrrhogaster, but I'm sure you got them switched as well. The C. e. popei were more willing to switch when not provided much land, but the C. pyrrhogaster that didn't want to switch would just hide in the cracks of the cork bark piece. Eventually almost all switched, but some stubborn ones remained. The difference in growth was marked though as soon as they became more aquatic. Ed, could you post a picture of the runt now? It still had an odd pattern when you got it, but the coloration was fading. For comparison you can see the runt popei thread.
j
 
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