Compulsive pet keeping, or

[edward]

Hi Ira,
I worked in several different pet stores for over 12 years both full and then parttime after I went to work for the Zoo. I had many moments like that but I remember having far more where the people did get what they needed for the reptiles and amphibians when advised properly. That is why I questioned the proportion of the customers that the attitude you cite typifies. These people often seem to be in the majority as they stand out in our minds.
This does seem to be more frequent with fish as there is still the attitude that all of the fish can go together or that all you need to do is set up the tank and add fish as this is the information that many pet stores tell the customers. Many pet stores treat customers as the person may never come back again get them for all that they have.

I have dealt with my share of requests for anals, enemas, greckos, and boxer and painter turtles.

Iguanas do not make terrible pets if you are willing to allot them the room and meet their requirements for the next 10-15 years.

Ed

 

[jesse]

i think i very good cure for the pokemon syndrome is for the person to play the actual game. I think that they would be able tio satisfy the hoarding instinct by hoarding nonliving videogame characters. A pet shop near my house, is possibly the best petshop i have ever been to. They have rules and one of the rules is that you know about the animals before you buy it, and that you buy the correct enclosures furnishings and food for the animals. i know this since they always ask a blizzard of questions, when ever anyone buys anything.

 

[edward]

That is the way I dealt with my customers when I worked in the trade. If I felt that a herp may not have been the best choice for them I told them so and steered them to another animal that was probably a better choice.

Ed

 

[jesse]

i dont know why but its usually always the small privately owned petshops that tend to take better care of the animals, also they actually take and suggestions from concerned customers more seriously. Not like the big guys that jsut send you a thank youi letter.

 

[ira]

that sounds similar to the way i used to sell herps, i guess it pretty much boiled down to trying to talk the person out of buying a herp, and if they were still interested after i knew they were going to be a good owner.

 

[clarence]

Impulse buys, and just not knowing enough, and being initially ignorant are one thing. Those are all easily curable, and for me, excusable. Everybody is ignorant of many things. Teaching eachother is the quickest means of fixing that

 

[ira]

i guess my biggest beef with the job was, that even after i informed the person how to take care of the animal, and they didnt want to spend the money or time on it, and still wanted the animal, i couldnt turn them away because i would get fired. I guess that is reason 1 why i will never work in another petstore that i dont at least co-own.

 

[jesse]

theres a privately owned petshop here in the pomona covina area were i live. it was a great petshop while it lasted. so i was thinking that mabey if we all were to chip in we might be able to buy it and it could be owned by everyone that chipped in that is a memeber of the site, kind of like stock. Im not really an economics wiz so you are going to have to ghelp me out with if this is possible or not, but i think it would be really kool to hold stock in a pet store dedicated to caudates only, plus i think it would be a really big step forwaurd for the site. also since we are talking about the mistakes ppl make with pet shops, i was thinking that if we all were to buy this store collectively we woul;d be making a dofference somehow. So what do all of you say? yay or nay?

 

[jesse]

oh yeah by the way the pet shop uis being sold by the owner

 

[paris]

here is one thing very poignant to this discussion. there used to be a retail shop in littleton(south of denver) called 'pro exotics' it was started and funded by a denver bronco and 2 packers (i believe-maybe they were from washington) anyways he has the retail side and then a side for his breeding facility. the store was excellent-all the animals were carefully cared for-and the staff would ask lots of questions to perspective buyers. the retail store lasted about 2 years-i could only go up there to see them occasionally-but the last time i was there there was a sign posted on the door -more like a 'rant' from the owner telling about how it appears that high volume and crappy pet stores are the only ones who can make it. he told of how dissapointed he was that the best shop that really cared wasnt able to stay in the black and was sorry he had to close.

 

[jesse]

thats a tear jerker, thats why i think mabey as a collective web of member mabey we could run the shop better?

 

[sharon]

Man all of those stories are just so sad.

But like Ed, I have to say that when I worked for a petshop I really do think I was able to make a difference.

But then I had a pretty lenient boss. I was allowed to weed the real freaks out, like the guy who was convinced that he buy a trio of ferrets (and he wanted a deal on them) and breed them. OH PULEASE. Here in the US, nearly 100% of ferrets bought from a petstore come from 2 farms, all are spayed & neutered and descented. I argued with this moron for a few minutes before informing him that the ferrets were ill and couldn't be sold.

Funny story, telling the nun who blowing raspberries on a male ferrets' belly button that the thing WAS NOT a belly button was the highlight of my job! FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY!!! She kept giggling and looking around and saying "He likes me, he likes me! I didn't know they could be so friendly!!" I was already dying with pent up laughter and had collapsed against a wall. Truely debating whether or not I should embarrass the heck out of her by telling her that wasn't his belly button. And whats even more funny is the nun who was with her nearly peed herself laughing and had to borrow our restroom.

I really think the best we can all do right obvious wrongs, complain when possible, and inform inform inform. My hubby just HATES going to walmart with me (A giant super store with a small animal section & fish) I followed a pair of girls (15 - 17 yrs old) around for 15 minutes trying to figure if they were REALLY going to put the ONE male betta and ONE female betta in that 6 inch bowl. God save me, they were, They really thought they could breed those two fish in that tiny bowl. I mentioned that the female was probably not mature and that if they weren't both ready the male would most likely kill the female or at least beat her up considerably and getting quite a bit of damage done to himself from her. I did my best to talk them into buying a second bowl but they figured they had something that work at home.

I do the same at the petshops. I have no shame when it comes to sticking my nose in other peoples animal business or human kids for that matter. My shopping trips take much longer than I would like but its the best way I have at the moment to reach out and educate.

MOST people appreciate good information. I used to carry a list of good websites like Melissa Kaplans Iguana site which has grown CONSIDERABLY since I first saw it. Caudata.org is now on my "good info" site along with maybe two or three others. I usually put the sites down on my hubbys' business card along with my home phone or someone else I know who knows the animal better.

I've adopted out one ferret in the past three weeks but I'm expecting two rabbits sometime this weekend. Apparently the owners the bought a new puppy and although the rabbits are good and friendly - the kids are bored with it. I still have an iguana in a foster home that needs a good home and three sulcata tortoises and two other rabbits needing homes. They are here for life if I don't ever find someone who can treat them as well as I do or better.

Its not hard to add these guys to "my collection" since their needs aren't far from my own critters needs.

Back to collecting animals. I think I'm something of a collector. I LOVE animals. I would never mistreat one. In general animals are mine for their entire lives. But lets face it, in the world of reptiles and amphibs the fancier and more unique = more fun. It says something about the person who is willing to buy or improvise a chiller for a specialty newt, who dedicates a room for their herps. I just like having them. All of my animals are in rooms I spend time in. The kitchen, the living room and the bathroom. Whats the point of owning them if they aren't on display?

It drives my hubby nuts (came from a family where pets were expendable and did NOT live indoors) but I'm not watching Oprah (sp?) or Jerry Springer and the house is reasonably clean, the animal tanks/cages are cleaner.

My rabbits are a fairly rare exotic type that I breed to help further breed (I bought all winning show stock) and to help bring a few dollars into the animal fund in my house. My axolotls will do the same. Does anyone see anything wrong with this?

Owning a green tree frog is NOT the dream of most herp keepers. It is however a jumping off point for owning a Red Eyed Tree Frog and Darts. I owned several green tree frogs then gave them away, they were nice, but I really wanted Red Eyed Tree frogs, once I knew the basics I was ready to move up. After keeping the Red Eyes for several months I realized I didn't have the time to pay such a HUGE block of attention to their needs and moved "down" to Whites. Now I have a quartet of Whites, two males & two females. I like these frogs. They are good personable frogs. I can interact with them more so than the red eyes. Axolotls are the same. They grow to be large and personable and can take a bit of handling (hand feeding and hand "docking") occasionally. I have a cat for cuddling and intentional maulings, a dog who lays across my feet and loves all the pats and loving and a few rabbits who also enjoy cuddling. Eventually I'll add a song bird or three to the mix.

I live on a large piece of land with a small house but with an innovative husband. I stay at home to raise my kids and have more time on my hands than I care to think about. All of my animals have the largest cages possible. Rabbits have two story individual cages, ferrets have a 6 story cage, dog has 4 acres, etc etc etc. None of my animals are neglected. I do cut whatever corners I can, meds from mexico (I live about 4 miles from the border), I give their shots myself, we go to a rabies clinic for that particular shot, and I use the internet as much as possible to diagnose and treat my animals myself. Or at least cut the vets office off from surplus tests!

So for all of you who haven't made a business out of your pets, but the animals are well treated despite the fact that you own 2 - 50 or more, I don't see anything wrong with that. For those who have made a business out of it, CONGRATULATIONS! The more captive bred herps we have the better. I'm all for these guys remaining wild but to have a little of it tame in our homes is fantastic isn't it?

Well I hope I didn't sound to stupid, its only 7:30 AM here and I'm only on my second cup of coffee (got to have some sort of excuse!) I probably didn't say all that I wanted to or needed to but, lol, I've got to cut myself off at some point.

Sharon

 

[edward]

Hi Paris,
The walk in retail shop for ProExotics is closed but the store is still going strong see http://www.proexotics.com/

I did see a macaw curse out a bunch of nuns once.

Ed

 

[al]

I think Jennewt's point was well taken. We can get over our heads as keepers that the animals suffer. I had to constantly downsize my collection in the past. I now have a small tank room that holds 12 tanks. I made a deal with my spouse, that if I create this room, (running water/electric/timmers/window/temp. controlled) I would not have any tanks in the rest of the house. This is my 12 tank rule. I don't mix species, so the most I can have is 12. I don't over crowd so the biggest colony would be 6-8 per tank (20-33 gallon longs/short-cut). If I want to expand or add a new species, I have to make room. In order to make room, I have to find a good home and risk shipping (takes time to arrange)...needless to say it prevents the impulse buying. If I break the 12 tank rule...and a tank ends up...less say in the Den or the kitchen...I end sleeping in the shed

Of course there are negative consequences that help me stick to the 12 tank rule.

At first I was not sure if this would work, but after a year of doing this, I'm really glad I did it. I can personally manage 12 tanks even if my schedule is hectic, but it makes me enjoy what I've got and not looking for something else.
I actually have only 10 tanks that are set up and two of them have one species of different color morphes(axolotls).
I was thinking of setting up the 2 tanks and adding two more colonies, but I'm expecting eggs soon and may keep them open for breeding.
BTW...I do have a tank at work..."13 tank rule"?, but that's an unlucky number

I also have two large rubermaid containers with the floor space for breeding so I have some expansion options.

(Message edited by Al on July 05, 2004)

 

[TJ]

Just to set the record straight, I don't take it personally but I object to the recent assertion that I'm afflicted with "Pokeman Syndrome" -- if that is to be defined as one who easily tires of what one already has and constantly seeks to add this or that new or exotic species to his/her ever-expanding collection.

Exotic species are readily and regularly available to me here in Tokyo, a city with plenty of herp shops, but do I buy them one after another? The answer is "no". I do often post pics of them to share, but it's wrong to assume they're necessarily mine. I simply have lots of local caudate-enthusiast contacts and regularly make the rounds of the shops to purchase food and supplies. Pokeman Syndrome? Has anybody received mails from me asking that animals be sent to me from their locality? With the exception of a couple balloons floated last year regarding C.cyanurus eggs if they ever become available

, the answer is again "no"

I simply don't lust after foreign species. Some 90% of my newts and sals are local Cynops and Hynobius species. The most numerous in my collection are C.ensicauda. Do I tire of them? To the contrary, I'm more interested in them than ever before -- which is precisely why I don't post much about them these days, not wishing to inadvertently popularize them overseas any more than I have already. And for what it's worth, I've freed more C.ensicauda in their native habit from death traps like drainage ditches than I will ever keep captive. And as far as hynobiids go, I'm increasingly involved in organized conservation activities. I don't consider this to be entirely at odds with the fact that I've had the pleasure of raising several species from egg sacs, though purists are free to view this as hypocritical.

I consider the size of my collection to be reasonable considering my goals -- and by that I mean that I am not keeping newts and sals just as "pets" but to amass knowledge about Japanese species for future compilation. I keep only as many newts and sals as I can adequately care for, I devote a hefty proportion of my time and money to their care, and I use them not only for my own viewing pleasure but in the pursuit of and spread of knowledge about caudates -- and not only through this forum but through exchanges with enthusiasts and academics here in Japan.
** trying unsuccessfully not to sound like a goodie two shoes **

Sure, like anybody else here who has ever purchased a WC animal or has taken one directly from the wild, I can't and don't claim to have "clean hands." As part of the learning process that Ed speaks of, I have in the past overextended myself and done things that had a negative impact on the environment. And like Jen, I have mixed feelings about the hobby. But I console myself with my commitment to more than cancel out my negative deeds with positive deeds insofar as caudate conservation is concerned by the time I gasp my last breath
** pats self on the back for being so noble **

 

[sharon]

ROTFLMAO!@Tim, you are funny! Congratulations for being so humble and noble all at once! What self sacrifice you've shown!

One day when my kids are grown and out of my house I hope to be able to indulge on the scale or in the depth that some of the people here have. Until then, because hubby insists that each child have their own room, my space is limited. Hubby also objects to buckets of worms sitting on top of his defrosting steak and he was REALLY upset to unwrap that odd looking tray thingy in the freezer only to find a really loused up frozen worm experiment. (If you are going to use those chewing gum packages to make your own frozen bloodworms, use something tacky to help "divide" the squares!!!!)

Naw, seriously, I have so much admiration for the hard work most of you put into your animals! I love the knowledge you are able impart because of your experiences and I deeply appreciate it!

Sharon

 

[TJ]

I suppose it's only natural for one to try and justify the pursuit of one's hobby -- both to oneself as well as to others -- especially when it's at the expense of the natural environment. But if that feeling of owing a debt to nature leads to some compensatory actions, then the pursuit of that hobby becomes...more objectively justifiable

Take our medical team Jen and Ed, for instance, I don't know how many newt lives they're responsible for having been lost in their many years of newt-keeping, but they've used the knowledge they've gained in the process to save countless others through their patient advice to newtbies on this forum and others -- not to forget people like John and Nate for bringing this forum into being in the first place. I knew next to nothing when I first logged on and the learning never stops. So anyway, their debts are being paid off, however indirectly. I hope to pay mine off too...sometime, somewhere, somehow.

By the way, like Al, I made a deal with my spouse late last year not to expand my collection and to confine it to a single room, which entailed some downsizing -- though I've gotten away with keeping twice as many tanks as he has! But I also have no regrets about the deal.

 

[ajfr0ggy]

I have aquired many animals over time, and gone well beyond 12 species. However, i would only consider my gerbils, quial, diamond doves, zebra finches, water dragons,vieled chams, leopard geckos and hybrid garter snakes as pets, as the others, i dont really interact with, and they show no pleasure from human interaction, actually, most will prefer no human interaction at all. The rest of my herps, are intended for breeding, although with the missfortunes of the a cuople of males dieing, this is not possible I still seek out males of the species, which includes sun skinks, and cyprus race occelated skinks. I deffinitely feel the need to breed my WC animals, and wont be satisfied, untill I have sold alot more babies than the WC adults i bought. Providing they are all cared for properly, there is no problem with a large collection, especially if they are breeding. One of my biggest aims, is to breed my rococo toads, or any of my toads in fact, as one spawning can reduce the need of WC animals by many 100s

AJfr0ggy

 

[edward]

My deal is I get one room for my office and the basement. My wife gets the rest of the house.

Ed

 

[edward]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Tim.

To touch on a point that Sharon made is that you do not need to make it a business to help with the pressure on wc animals. Many newt eggs will ship well if packed in damp moss. You can always give surplus eggs away or trade them. It is very difficult to make money breeding most of these animals as the clutch sizes are small, take a number of months to reach a salable size and often will not recoup what you spent to rear them. (Although if the eggs were treated like killifish eggs and sold that way, it may be possible to turn a small profit, and allow more people to develop husbandry skills rearing the larva, hmmm I need to ponder that some more. )

Ed