Breeding Albino Tiger Salamanders

[Ominojacu]

Hi, I have been a member here for a while and have enjoyed Caudata as a great source of information, but this is my first post. I have kept tiger salamanders for years and have enjoyed them for the wonderful creatures they are, but have never successfully bred them. I am now however committed to this endeavor, as I have recently purchase an albino tiger salamander at a price so obscene for a salamander that my wife cried when I confessed to making the purchase! My goal for this project is to make the albino tiger salamander as common in the hobby as an albino horned frog. So the purpose of this post is to ask for advice and help and in exchange any successful breeding will be made available to Caudata members who are interested. I will of course go through all the old post for information, but if you have any tips or references to post that will save me time, it is much appreciated. My first question is how do identify the exact subspecies that I have? I didn't get much from the seller as far as origin though he was certain that it was not a western species. Secondly, does it matter? I will post pictures soon, thanks!

 

[BlakeK]

Unless you have an albino male and female, you will have to breed your albino with a normal for heterozygote albino offspring. You can then breed the albino parent back to the heterozygote albino offspring for albino offspring. So you are probably looking at a minimum of a 2 year project without an adult albino male and female.

Breeding tiger salamanders has been done several times, mostly outside of the U.S. For some reason it seems that there is not much interest in producing captive bred offspring in the U.S. I would assume that a good overwinter period is needed, but you should ask John P. Clare.

 

[Ominojacu]

Yes, I figured it was a recessive trait, so my first goal is to produce Hets. I have taken advantage of the current warm spell to move him into outdoor over-wintering accommodations. Which consist of a plastic storage box with the bottom two inches separated by acrylic with holes drilled in it, this bottom two inches is filled with water to maintain the humidity of the substrate, the remainder is filled with a combination of sphagnum moss and peat. This container is also in a larger storage container with newspaper and Styrofoam surrounding it. This arrangement has worked for me in the past as it is insulated enough to prevent quick fluctuations in temperature which is to be avoided. I plan on building an out door enclosure for breeding. I don't know if he is sexually mature, so I would not be surprised if this takes a year or two to get started. I took some pictures and will post them shortly. Currently I have a pair of Barred tiger salamanders (Ambystoma mavortium mavortium) I am not sure it is desirable to mix the subspecies, though I imagine is it possible considering that people have bred Tigers with Axolotls. At any rate I have ordered two female Easterns (Ambystoma tigrinum) which are probably a better fit. The reason Tiger salamanders are not currently bred is the availability of cheap wild caught specimens. However this is not the case for albino color morphs so we have really good chance of getting this to take off.

 

[Ominojacu]

See following pictures, also pictured are my barred Tiger (Ambystoma mavortium mavortium) salamanders they are about 4-5 years old.

 

[Azhael]

Of all your plans, mixing species/subspecies is perhaps the least problematic. The intensive line breeding, massive reduction of genetic diversity and the promotion of one aberrant allele over normal polymorphisms are far more worrying.
Your phrase "My goal for this project is to make the albino tiger salamander as common in the hobby as an albino horned frog" sends shivers down my spine. Why would anyone want to take a living creature and transform it into a novelty piece of collectable furniture for capricious, uninformed people. It baffles me how people can see that as a good thing....how terrible.

 

[Ominojacu]

Your criticism, is valid, however why stop there? Why breed any animal? Leave them all in nature and appreciate them there. That is a valid opinion, however, I would ask you to consider the state of our natural environment and its future. We exist now in the fastest extinction period in the history of this planet, with amphibian species hit hardest. Nearly a third of all amphibians are considered threatened and 168 species believed to have gone extinct in the last 100 years. This is dramatic considering that past extinction events have taken place over millions of years. The cause of this problem is human interaction, mostly the loss and pollution of habitat. These are difficult if not impossible to manage and things continue as they are it is very like that we look at a future in which the only amphibians that exist are the ones we have bothered to produce in captivity. Secondly, my purpose in seeing the albino color morph made common, is to reduce demand on wild populations. One can argue that breeding a species only increases demand for wild caught specimens, that is somewhat true, however, breeding color morphs decrease demand for wild caught as these can not be readily found in the wild. If I was successful and the average person could buy an albino captive bred tiger salamander for around 50 dollars, why would anyone buy a wild caught animal for 40? While it may not eliminate the sale of wild caught animals, it certainly will compete with it.

 

[Azhael]

I´m not arguing against breeding animals, i´m arguing against bad breeding practices that negatively affect the animals.
I see your point about reducing wild collections, but i don´t think this is the way to go because while that goal is certainly a commendable one, in order to achieve it you are sacrificing the well-being of the captive produced animals. Definitely not ideal. I think the goal can be achieved without compromising the captive gene pool which is exactly what would happen by pandering to people´s capriciousness and their thirst for anything mutant. You don´t make a right by doing a wrong.
I am very much against commercial wild collections, but that said, i have to admit it doesn´t seem to be the main threat to this particular species...in fact it doesn´t seem to be an actual threat, rather an undesirable activity.
Furthermore, if your goal is to help preserve a species, line breeding of recessive traits and pandering to the "phase craze" certainly does not contribute at all. If you succeeded, your genetic line would no doubt be given preference over other captive bred lines and be crossed. In the end the result would be what always happens in these cases, one single captive gene pool which is very poorly managed and which deviates from wild populations. This in turn creates a new conservation problem which is the possibility of captive aberrants or captive fixed alleles being released into the wild. Release of domestic animals already seems to be a very real threat for some ambystoma populations.
Again, i see your point about competing against wild collections and i support it, i just don´t think that you should or need to make sacrifices that will affect the captive gene pool in order to achieve that goal. Your plans not only carry consequences but they also contribute to an already existing problem which is how captive populations are managed and how artifitial selection is applied. Wouldn´t promoting captive breeding as well as practices that have the welfare and future of the animals in mind be a superior choice?

 

[Cole Grover]

I strongly encourage you NOT to breed together members of different populations within the Ambystoma tigrinum/mavortium complex. To diverge from Rodrigo's stance, it would be preferable, from my point of view, to breed "mutant" animals from the same population rather than breed together animals from disparate populations.

 

[Azhael]

From the point of view of potential crosscontamination with wild populations, certainly, but assuming an isolated captive gene pool, the opposite is true.
Of course the ideal is to do neither, maintaining population identity and practicing a healthy captive gene pool management.

 

[Ominojacu]

I am inclined not to interbreed the different subspecies, though I have no locality data on my specimen, so I will have to make a best guess. I believe it is an eastern tiger salamander(Ambystoma tigrinum) and breed it accordingly. As far as the morph vs. protecting gene pool discussion is concerned this is probably one area in which we will have to agree that we disagree. Its not that I disregard this position but rather that my opinion on it is not a popular one and I expect emotion to rule over reason. My position is this, it is an illusion that captive bred animals in anyway represent wild populations, or wild gene pools. The fact is that a captive animal is not under the same evolutionary pressures as animal in nature, and the point to which it genetically represents natural populations diminishes with every generation, bred for traits or otherwise. It is my assertion that any animal raised outside of nature must be considered genetically unfit to ever be returned and doing so represents an artificial population, following this assertion captive breeding is no substitute for protecting wild populations and habitat. That said I believe this discussion is worthwhile and will carefully consider your points. I do believe however, that both camps on this issue have a right to their pursuits, those looking to maintain natural phenotypes and those looking to breed morphs or cross species. The compromise in my mind that a standard of record keeping should be pursued. When purchasing a captive bred animal, or even wild caught, original locality data should be available, and if captive bred, lineage and any selective decisions made in that lineage. Does anyone know if there is online database for tracking such information? As an application developer and DBA that might be project I would consider.

 

[Bellabelloo]

I'll add my pennyworth to this. Please make sure your albino tiger is a strong healthy animal before contemplating any attempts to breed it. It would be pretty terrible to produce potential weak animals to the hobby.

 

[KrisztianNemeth]

Lets face it the albino ones look revolting and if people want animals that have been selectively bred to look like that them they may as well get an axolotl. Why are people not happy with how they look naturally i for one think those traits devalue the animal completely and the natural forms are much prettier... Its your choice but it doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[Azhael]

I am inclined not to interbreed the different subspecies, though I have no locality data on my specimen, so I will have to make a best guess. I believe it is an eastern tiger salamander(Ambystoma tigrinum) and breed it accordingly. As far as the morph vs. protecting gene pool discussion is concerned this is probably one area in which we will have to agree that we disagree. Its not that I disregard this position but rather that my opinion on it is not a popular one and I expect emotion to rule over reason. My position is this, it is an illusion that captive bred animals in anyway represent wild populations, or wild gene pools. The fact is that a captive animal is not under the same evolutionary pressures as animal in nature, and the point to which it genetically represents natural populations diminishes with every generation, bred for traits or otherwise. It is my assertion that any animal raised outside of nature must be considered genetically unfit to ever be returned and doing so represents an artificial population, following this assertion captive breeding is no substitute for protecting wild populations and habitat. That said I believe this discussion is worthwhile and will carefully consider your points. I do believe however, that both camps on this issue have a right to their pursuits, those looking to maintain natural phenotypes and those looking to breed morphs or cross species. The compromise in my mind that a standard of record keeping should be pursued. When purchasing a captive bred animal, or even wild caught, original locality data should be available, and if captive bred, lineage and any selective decisions made in that lineage. Does anyone know if there is online database for tracking such information? As an application developer and DBA that might be project I would consider.

I agree that genetic integrity in terms of locality, subspecies, etc, is not necessarily relevant in domestic populations, except when the possibility of crosscontamination exists, because it doesn´t in itself directly impact welfare. I certainly don´t see domestic populations as a valid reservoir for wild ones. The only reason i mentioned something along those lines is because i thought you were implying it in the first place. In fact, for the sake of this discussion let´s consider them completely independent and let´s just focus of the domestic gene pool. My criticism is that breeding practices that focus on the mass production of single recessive deleterious traits are terrible ways to manage captive gene pools. The effects of this bad management can be quite dramatic in the long term as we have seen in other animal groups. The worst case scenario is the proliferation of seriously deleterious traits that cause significantly diminished welfare and potentially suffering. Also, it might even get to be so bad that people go back to demanding wild blood to incorporate into their breedings which defeats the original purpose of eliminating collections (this has happened before). I know i´m making a prediction here, but it´s one based on what has already happened to every single mass produced domestic species. The management is atrocious, the application of aesthetics based artificial selection, the reduction of genetic diversity, the abuse of line breeding, etc, eventually fixes genes that cause trouble. Not to mention that the "morph" market actively promotes a desensitized mindset in which deleterious traits are tolerated or ignored in favour of their commercial value or collectability.
I agree that keeping track or pedigrees is a desirable thing, although not strictly necessary, and that the more information one has about the origin and history of their animals, the better decissions can be made if one can be bothered (which unfortunately many people can´t). In this particular case you already plan to begin with animals that don´t fit your own criteria as you have no locality data for them and all you can do is make an educated guess with a notoriously difficult complex species.

As you can imagine i can´t stop you from trying, nor tell you what to do, but this is a subject i care about and i´m just speaking my mind about it. I do apreciate that you are willing to have a discussion and listen to criticism.

 

[Cole Grover]

I realize that in (parts of?) Europe there may not be much of an appreciation of genetic integrity of different populations and species, but elsewhere, such as in the US, it is very important to many hobbyists and professionals. Now, this may not seem relavent when we are disucssing an animal with a genetic anomoly (such as amelanism), but the fact that this does crop up in wild populations, from genetic mutations that happen in nature, is indicative that it is every bit as "natural" as an individual which displays the "normal" phenotype for that population. Just one mutation among many... 'tis how variation comes about.

The point I'm trying to get across is that people who care enough to buy captive-bred salamanders over wild-collected ones, at least here in the US, are going to likely (based solely on my observations and interactions, yes) be concerned with the population/species affininty of the animals they are looking to acquire. People looking for a "cheap" pet to keep them entertained until they get tired of it probably don't care. The idea of a horde of Ambystoma mavortium X tigrinum hybrids floating around the hobby, albino or not, is repulsive. One of the most awesome and fantastic things about the animals John C. produced this year is that they ARE locality-specific and have that extra bit of natural history information attached to them.

-Cole

 

[Ominojacu]

Well, I am trying to get some locality information for this specimen, so that I can best meet this standard. It appears to me that my albino has the exact same markings as Gerards, who also post here. I believe it is the same animal. So if anyone know Gerard or where he found it, please let me know. Again I am posting here to get advice on the best methods to breed this salamander to maintain diversity. I certain will breed with animals within the same locale if possible. I am really hoping that someone has more information this particular specimen. I appreciate those that wish to maintain locality specific gene pools, And it seems this debate is a heated one throughout the hobby. Personally I feel there is room for both. There is no reason we cant pursue morphs, and locality specific. What stands in our way, again, in my opinion is a standard of record keeping to keep lines with locality specific goals, uncontaminated. Coming from an IT background where standard protocols are common, it seems to me that this hobby could benefit from emulating the tech world. Perhaps Caudata,org, could write the standard, and we then could all be Caudata certified breeders, something to think about anyway!

 

[John]

I hope you didn't give Tom Crutchfield his original asking price because frankly it's not worth it. While it's an unusual animal, Albino Eastern Tigers show up in the hobby every year or two, and there's virtually no market for them. Tom charges what he thinks he can get, and that usually means he pitches the prices at the same level as snake and lizard morphs, which is very much higher than most people would pay for a newt or salamander to begin with.

Anyhow, I found it a bit amusing that you said no one breeds them here in the US because they are so available as wild caught. If that's true, you shouldn't have any problems breeding them!

The info BlakeK gave you at the beginning is correct. However, I should warn you that Eastern Tigers don't grow as fast as Barreds. I can easily hatch a Barred and breed it less than a year later (unless it's a problem individual). I would say 2 years for an Eastern minimum.

Also, again in my experience Barreds make bolders captives than Easterns, and that means better pets.

 

[Azhael]

I realize that in (parts of?) Europe there may not be much of an appreciation of genetic integrity of different populations and species, but elsewhere, such as in the US, it is very important to many hobbyists and professionals. Now, this may not seem relavent when we are disucssing an animal with a genetic anomoly (such as amelanism), but the fact that this does crop up in wild populations, from genetic mutations that happen in nature, is indicative that it is every bit as "natural" as an individual which displays the "normal" phenotype for that population. Just one mutation among many... 'tis how variation comes about.

The point I'm trying to get across is that people who care enough to buy captive-bred salamanders over wild-collected ones, at least here in the US, are going to likely (based solely on my observations and interactions, yes) be concerned with the population/species affininty of the animals they are looking to acquire. People looking for a "cheap" pet to keep them entertained until they get tired of it probably don't care. The idea of a horde of Ambystoma mavortium X tigrinum hybrids floating around the hobby, albino or not, is repulsive. One of the most awesome and fantastic things about the animals John C. produced this year is that they ARE locality-specific and have that extra bit of natural history information attached to them.

-Cole

I think this is true to perhaps a larger extent whenever people keep or breed species that are not native (it may be caused by ignorance, apathy or simply a lack of pressure). However there certainly are exceptions and i count myself as one of them since i´d very much love it if every captive line was properly identified. If i ever decide to acquire CB tiger salamanders i´d certainly want them to be of known locality and pedigree.
I agree that the aberrant mutants are as natural as the normative polymorphisms but that doesn´t mean that all mutations are equal. Lethal mutations, anencephaly or cancer are all also very natural but highly undesirable wouldn´t you agree? My argument is not necessarily against the albinotic mutation, particularly since in a fossorial species it might not impact welfare (depending on the type of mutation and possible linked mutations) but against the consequences of favouring a single trait through intensive line breeding and contributing to a market which does not care about animal welfare, genetic integrity or anything other than pretty or rare colours and money.

I think you are right that given the extreme rarity of CB tigers in the US anyone who makes the effort to acquire them is almost certainly going to be an informed individual which makes them more likely to care. However, if Ominojacu´s plans were to succeed (hugely unlikely but still) or someone else´s for that matter, and imagining that CB albino tigers become sufficiently available to be on people´s radars, it´s a matter of time before the people who only care about the colours and don´t give a rat´s **** about locality identity or genetic fitness dominate, because after all they are far more numerous than the people who care.

I fully agree that John´s achievement is all the more remarkable because of the data available for the animals. I hope that the people who have bought from him care enough to cherish and preserve that info no matter what ends up happening with the animals.

 

[Ominojacu]

I didn't pay the full price but still way more than I have ever paid for a Salamander. I have seen albinos presented every couple of years or so as well, however, it is rare for people to offer them for sale. Are my chances of being successful unlikely? I feel like I have a solid chance. Since my plans center on the viability of this one salamander, there is a good chance that you are right, however, if this salamander is viable I feel relatively confident that I can meet the triggers necessary to stimulate breeding behavior. From my research I have gathered the following:
1. Overwintering a must
2. breeding pool at least 6 inches deep, 14 inches or more preferable, with branches leaves, silt bottom, still water.
3. Changes in lighting
4. Changes in humidity
5. Changes in Temperature, with between 54 and 56 degrees being optimal breeding temps.

From what I have read in the wild, the males head to breeding pools triggered by temperature, humidity, changes in lighting en-mass, the females follow about week later with the additional trigger of male pheromones.
I should be able to simulate most of that pretty easily. The pheromones thing is probably the trickiest part, though I am not sure it is required. I have some ideas for it that I may try, like getting a large group of males that will not be in the breeding group but in the pool prior to adding the breeding group. Another idea is making a pheromone disperser, which would involve soaking males and dispersing that water with a wick and small fan. I guess it would be fun to try and isolate and synthesize the pheromone but that would probably take some serious time to accomplish, still I would not take it off the table. If there is something I am missing let me know. As for the demand for albino salamanders, I am not really doing it for the money, just for love of the animal. For me the purpose of captive breeding is two fold, first is education, there is no better way to learn the needs and requirements of a species than to keep it and breed it successfully, and two, to reduce the demand for wild caught specimens which is best achieved through breeding color morphs. Locality breeding only encourages more collecting. Morph breeding competes with this. If I am successful with this project my next one will be to introduce the GFP gene, but I am getting way ahead of myself now.

 

[Cole Grover]

Rodrigo,

I think you and I are more on the same page regarding this subject than I originally thought.

-Cole

 

[Ominojacu]

Hi, Just to let you all know I have been listening, I have acquired some Eastern Florida locale tigers that have similar markings. I have come to the conclusion that my Albino is most likely from Florida as well, though I don't know for sure. Unfortunately my Florida locales look recently transformed and Probably won't be ready to breed until next season at the earliest, maybe not for a couple of years. I also acquired another eastern female of unknown origins that is a labyrinth pattern that is currently being bromated along with the male albino. I doubt they are from the same locale but at least they are both Easterns Now that said, I ran across the following article from 2007:
Thriving Hybrid Salamanders Contradict Common Wisdom -- ScienceDaily

To me this suggest that interbred Tiger subspecies are indeed a serious threat to native populations, should they be released. Though I doubt albino adults would be, but all those Hets that come before them would a disaster.