A few quick questions, most about Notos.

[Ltdanicecream]

Alright I have a few questions. My first is, are red efts ever available on the market? Especially captive bred. I've only had one eft, and it was so cool. I'd love to get another (CB) one, so if anyone has any, or even knows of someone that does, please let me know. Another one is... why would someone pay for a bait tiger? The cheapest I've ever seen a waterdog go for was $15, and I know you can buy a pretty good lure for that money that won't go down the throat of the first bass you catch. My last question is kind of like my second... how can pet shops afford to buy WC newts such as orientalis or viridescens, and sell them for as cheap as $4? How are the people who collect them paid, in dimes? If I wanted to catch a newt or frog, it'd take me a few hours to catch one. I don't know, I've just never understood how the whole WC system worked. Does anyone have any answers to any of my questions? Thanks a lot.

 

[Otterwoman]

Hello,
Red efts are never available CB. They are extremely difficult to raise, unfortunately, though it has been done. In some states (for ex., NY) they are illegal to sell, as they are a native species, and no species native to NY are legal to be kept here.

As far as cheap wc newts, unfortunately, they are caught in huge numbers (and many many don't even survive the trip to your tank, or even to the pet shop's tank). It's very sad. The collectors are probably paid a dime a dozen. They are probably just fished out of the ponds where they are abundant by the netful, I imagine. Animals are easier to find at certain times of year (ex. breeding time, when animals are visible in their ponds).
As far as the bait issue, I have no clue.

 

[Ltdanicecream]

Yeah, although when I had mine he ate willingly from my fingers the first day I had it.

I do know about the horrors of the WC pet trade. A few members on here do a very good job promoting captive bred > WC. I just don't see how someone can make a living off catching newts at a pond. If every pet shop has 20 FBNs, and there are 10 shops within a state, thats 200 newts. I guess they're just more common than I thought? Basically its just pachytriton, cynops, and notopthalmus that are regularly available. Maybe they're espcially common.

Btw, Idk if it will help but I live in Illinois.

 

[Azhael]

Red efts are never available CB.

Mine are xD Granted, they were CB in europe...

I trully don´t understand why you guys (americans) make such little effort in breeding your native species. I mean, here we primarily breed european species, then asian, and lastly american. But you almost never breed native species. I find that very curious.

N.viridescens is not an easy species, but it´s certainly not impossible.

 

[Mac Myers]

I truly don´t understand why you guys (americans) make such little effort in breeding your native species.

I think it's exactly because we ARE Americans. It's an attitude problem that we need to work on (to put it mildly). There are many (relatively speaking) dedicated people and breeding programs in the US in various areas of the herp species spectrum. But as a group I find most pet owners here to be extremely price conscious to the point were the easy money is in the importation of WC animals.... and that's what drives the legal (and illegal) herp trade. It's tough to sell CB animals when some bit of fecal matter is importing the same animal for 5 bucks per hundred. All his has to do is sell 4 or 5 and he's way ahead of the game.... he cares not that 80% of the animals die before they make it to the stores, another 10% die IN the stores, and 8% die once they go home with people who don't have the proper care sheets (or just get erroneous information from ignorant people in the pet trade) and the financial resources to care for the animals. At that price point the animals become "disposable pets". Why take an animal to the vet when you can buy 40 more for the price of the visit?
The moral issues fly right out the window.
It makes it very difficult for the dedicated breeders to afford to produce animals and many do it just to recoup some of the cost of the breeding......absorbing the rest of the cost as part of the Joy of owning the animals.
Wow... can I ramble or what?

 

[slowfoot]

Mine are xD Granted, they were CB in europe...

I trully don´t understand why you guys (americans) make such little effort in breeding your native species. I mean, here we primarily breed european species, then asian, and lastly american. But you almost never breed native species. I find that very curious.

N.viridescens is not an easy species, but it´s certainly not impossible.

I think for N. viridescens it's that they take so long to grow up. I think I started my breeding experience (the first real effort at it) in 2008. It's 2010 now and I'm still raising the efts from 2+ years ago. There may be some way to accelerate it, but I haven't found anything that works. I have exactly one sexually mature newt to show for those 2 years of work. It's been fun, but I certainly could not see breeding these guys in large enough numbers for resale or even small scale hobby selling.

Plus, we're lazy

 

[Ltdanicecream]

First off, I'm not liking the "lazy Americans" jokes. Sure, there are a lot of lazy Americans. There are also lazy Germans, Russians, Chinese, or any nationiality. As a whole, I think we are the most hard working nation in the world. That's just me. We don't take a "siesta" at 3 o'clock everyday, we work the longest hours, and have the least vacation days. That's all I have to say about that, sorry.

Anyways, we have a lot of difficult caudates to breed. Tiger sals, and most ambystomids, are next to impossible to breed. I don't know if that's because no one's tried, or if it really is hard. The difficulty of notos has been explained. Tarichas are pretty big, and not usually available, so that's a few turn offs for them. I'd love to breed some Notos, a red eft was my first newt ever, so they're especially important to me. I don't know where I'm going with this so I'll end it here.

Anyone else have any answers?

 

[NecturusLindsay]

Interesting perspective about Americans breeding non-native species. I breed Alpine newts and would have to say it was a toss up for me between getting into Alpines or breeding Eastern newts. I was however more attracted to the Alpines in the end purely because they are a species I can't walk outside and see. I come accross Noto efts and adults on a regular basis. Non-native species are a novelty to me.

Also, in general newt species native to the U.S. are few and far between. True we have many salamander species, but many are protected and difficult to keep. All in all, I would rather see the native species outside (however much longer they may have) than in my tank. Though the way things are going, the little guys in tanks may be the only ones left in the future.

 

[slowfoot]

First off, I'm not liking the "lazy Americans" jokes. Sure, there are a lot of lazy Americans. There are also lazy Germans, Russians, Chinese, or any nationiality. As a whole, I think we are the most hard working nation in the world. That's just me. We don't take a "siesta" at 3 o'clock everyday, we work the longest hours, and have the least vacation days. That's all I have to say about that, sorry.

As an American, I'm allowed to make as many 'Americans are lazy' jokes as I want. If you have a problem with it you can pm me.

In case it wasn't obvious, my real answer is that it takes a lot of work and time to raise our native species, probably more work than most, which is why the most commonly bred animals are not from the Americas.

 

[slowfoot]

I wish we could edit posts for a little longer...

I've thought about Azhael's post a little more and I think he has a point: Are our native species really harder to breed than non-natives? I'm wondering if there really is a difference in difficulty associated with the area of origin. Could be an interesting discussion in another area of the forum.

Some factors that are probably related: total number of species that are native to a region, dominant genera in an area, what type of protections are and were in place for native species, how 'flashy' or 'desirable' a species is, and how long has there been interest in the hobby in an area.

 

[Azhael]

Wow, wow...where does all the fuss come from? I didn´t, in the slightest, mean to offend anyone. Although i have to say i haven´t had a siesta in years

It´s not about americans being lazy...i never said that at all. It´s about the observation of the fact that in the US, the more commonly bred species are not native (except axolotls which are american). In europe, among the most commonly bred ones there are plenty of native species.
I think it´s an interesting fact.

It´s generally agreed that many, many genera of US native caudates are very hard to breed...but we are seeing in recent years that they are being bred more and more (funnily enough, in europe for the most part). Some users like Justin, have reported succesful breedings of traditionally "impossible" species, and not surprisingly their technics are nothing fancy, just based on good observation and understanding of the animal´s nature.

I don´t think it´s fair to say that the reason for this is that US species are harder to breed and keep. There are hard species everywhere..i mean look at some Tylototriton, look at Pachytriton, some Salamandra, Hynobius, Chioglossa....
If Notophthalmus are difficult, Lissotriton are nothing sort.

I think this is all related....There is little breeding of native species, therefore many remain "unexplored" and automatically considered impossible or extremely difficult. If there was a bigger effort in breeding native species, many of those impossibles would probably turn out to be rather easy.

I´m not saying the fact that there is little breeding of your native species is bad or wrong in any way. I just think it´s really curious. There are several factors that contribute to the differences between Europe and the US, and i would say the bigger one is the fact that we have been left with little wilderness after all the historical over-population and over-exploitation, which means that all species are protected and very apreciated by those interested. The US has a lot of wilderness....many species are not endangered at all, and so the interest or need to focus on native species is much less pressing.


Anyway, i just think it´s funny. We are fascinated by your caudates, and you are fascinated by ours or the asian species. Mind you, it´s only normal to be interested in the exotic.

 

[Mac Myers]

First off, I'm not liking the "lazy Americans" jokes.

If you are referring to me... I wasn't joking.

 

[Mac Myers]

I think I'm the one that called us lazy.

Lindsay...You are lucky. I'm a fat, old, balding, 4th generation Floridian who used to hunt, dive, snorkel (fresh and saltwater) and fish up and down the west coast and pan handle of Florida and in Alabama. I was born in the Tampa Bay Area. I have never seen any native Caudates at all. I've only seen two Crayfish that were not on a plate in front of me in a Cajun Restaurant and one of them got run over by a car before I could scoop him up.

 

[Ltdanicecream]

Oh god, I've been quite the troll I just wanted to point out that there are many Americans that are lazy, but many that are hard working. I think the lazy and dumb stereotypes are overplayed, or we woulnd't be one of the top world powers. That's all. I didn't mean to insult you, Azhael, because you are a wealth of knowlege and I respect you and your CB crusade. I didn't mean to offend anyone for that matter!





By the way, whoever edited my "Idk" to "I don't know" in my first post thanks a ton :happy:

 

[misslyss]

The US has a lot of wilderness....many species are not endangered at all,

Not really. While over half of the land in the United States is managed for agriculture, ironically less than 2.5% is comprised Wilderness. Since our country is much younger we are faced with extensive building and urbanization which are conditions capable of wiping out species all together. Not to mention with all the "change" happening lately salamanders are not exactly in the spotlight.

A little over 10 species are considered threatened or endangered and protected in the U.S., but who really knows how many species are also threatened, endangered, or even extinct after the last real estate boom and crash. California, for instance, is one of the leading urban states and also home to the ever so popular California Tiger Salamander, which is endangered.

 

[Otterwoman]

I think it's because in general, American newts/sals don't readily breed in captivity. At least, the most popular ones (Notos, Tigers, Spotteds). Especially those Ambystoma. It's very difficult, and I know people have tried, with limited success.

 

[ed_moyer]

Well there are more people then you would think that breed and raised notos! I know for a fact that Justin and I have raised many over the years! Also alot of sals that we were told couldn't be done!!!!!

 

[Otterwoman]

I am so impressed that Justin cb'd those opacum. But have you guys raised N.v. or some other subspecies? I think other subspecies are bred often enough, though I don't doubt that you and Justin could do anything.

 

[Ltdanicecream]

Yes, it does seem N.V.V is most common WC yet seemingly unexistant CB. NVD and NVL can be found with ireggular frequnecy, but NVV is almost like A.tigrinum to find CB. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but thats what I've noticed. We are kinda off topic from the first post but this is getting interesting. If you're new to this thread please reply only to post one.

Another question - can the vibrant red color found in WC efts be just as radiant in CB ones, if fed a diet rich in carotines like daphnia and brine shrimp?

 

[Azhael]

Alyssa, i´m sorry, i suposse i should have said north america because that´s what i was actually thinking of. North american as a whole has quite a lot of wilderness still, certainly much more than what´s left, proportionally, in europe (here the insularitation of every natural habitat has had dramatic effects).

Notos are not THAT hard to find as CB here...they certainly are not common, but they are bred, and they are available.
Dawn, Justin´s success is certainly brilliant news, and what i liked most about it is that he showed how the only thing he had done was to follow the natural requirements of the species (which sets a great example). Nothing complicated, it was just about being clever and understanding the species. Here, CB A.opacum, A.maculatum and A.tigrinum/mavortium are becoming available in recent seasons, and not at high prices at all in some cases. For me it proves that things only have to be done right, and they are not harder to breed than the average salamander. I´m very confident that we will see frequent breeding of these species in years to come.

Ltdanicecream: Yes, of course it can. You´d probably need something more than just artemia and daphnia, though.