Early sexing of L. vulgaris juveniles?

[Molch]

I got these CB 2011 smooth newt babies (Lissotriton vulgaris vulgaris) about a month ago from Michael. Since then, they've been good little newts and have eaten a lot and grown visibly. These two are almost 6 cm long.

Their belly patterns are emerging, and I am wondering if they could be an early indication of their gender. In adult smooth newts, the males have large round spots and the females tiny sprinkly spots on their bellies.

I'm thinking the first one might be a male and the second one a female?

What do you think?

 

[rethgar]

I think you could be right, the first definitely looks male. The second seems likely to be female although there are a large amount of spots, but this can be variable anyway. Do you have any photos side on? This view could yield clues also...

 

[Molch]

I'll try to get the side view - the "male" has a darker dorsal color with faint large spots emerging and also more definition on the face, eg a whitish bar above the lips that contrasts with the darker face....I'll try to get pics tonight

That's a nice avatar you have with the male belly pattern

 

[Azhael]

I would agree too, but with a low degree of certainty. Juvenile coloration is rarely a good indication of adult coloration in most species, so i wouldn´t take it as a reliable feature. Not to say that it can´t be an indication.
To confirm genders i would wait until males start developing dorsal spots and the beginning of a crest. That´s much more reliable indeed. The reason why i´m inclined to say that i agree with the gender diagnosis is mostly that the first individual has a darkening cloaca which is very characteristic.
They look fantastic by the way, you need to take more pictures of those wonderful little chaps.

 

[Tudor]

Molch, Im 90 percent sure you right. First is a male and second a female.
I will post tomorrow some pictures of my juveniles from 2011. They look pretty much like yours.

 

[Molch]

here are some side views of the kids The first thwo are the maybe-male, and the third the maybe-female. Up close it *almost* looks as though the "male" is beginning to develop a crest...

disclaimer: Whatever they'll turn out to be, I'll love 'em just the same....although it would be kinda cool if they were sexable this early.

 

[Azhael]

They are adorable. I like this species very much indeed, they are fantastic!
I think given the differences between them you are fully justified in assigning them those genders, it all points clearly in that direction.
Some species of the Lissotriton genus can reach maturity at a pretty small size, even 5cm long. At least in some populations or under certain conditions.

 

[horsyqueen]

i had a group of adults i would say the more green one is a female well i had a more green one put as a girl. i have just babies now.

 

[Molch]

They look fantastic by the way, you need to take more pictures of those wonderful little chaps.

hehe, thanks - would love to take more pics; problem is they live in a plastic box with lid tighly closed over some no-see-um-netting, and whenever I take that off to take pics, I get a mass-jailbreak of ff's and field plankton...

 

[rethgar]

They are beautiful and looking at the second batch of photos I'll stick my neck out and say your original gender call is right.

Thanks for the avatar compliment, some photos I took a few years ago.

 

[Azhael]

some photos I took a few years ago.

And you don´t share?? Upload!!

 

[Molch]

here they are a few weeks later. There is no longer any doubt that my 4 largest ones are in fact 2 males and 2 females (yay).

The males have developed big spots, a faint dorsal crest and a roundish black cloaca. They also have a much darker dorsal color.

The females are more of a yellow or ochre color, have light colored cloacas, small belly spots, and 2 subtle lateral lines along the back.

check out the pics!