Your guesses please

[pollywog]

A few weeks ago I picked up a shipment of Cynops orientalis, mixed in were 3 oddly coloured newts:

I know the coloration can vary slightly in C.o linked with temp etc. but these were kept with the others and did not change colour and were so distinct from the rest of the group and so distinct from any other C.o I have had before.
Are they just oddly coloured C.o, or are they something more?
Can I have your guesses please?

 

[pamela]

They look like oddly colored C. orientalis! I have some gray types. Also, some with almost solid orange bellies. A couple of the gray types also have a mottled pattern of light gray, with dark gray, with black. I guess one would call that dappled. Interestingly, they change from dark to light, vice versa.

 

[wouter]

Andrew, I know it's only a small chance because their distribution is now extremely limited, but these really look like C. orphicus to me (at least they look like the animals on the amphibiaweb).
The skin, headshape and tail do indeed look very different from C. orientalis.

 

[pamela]

Hi Andrew,

I think Wouter has a good point! Although they do look a little "odd" to me for C.o., after reviewing the pics of C. ophricus, that may be what they are!!!!

Wow, if they are, you have quite a rare animal (even possibly extinct in the wild-so some say).

Since I am new to this hobby, it will take some real newt pros here, esp. those that know the cynops species, to correctly identify these newts.

I can't wait to find out myself!!!!

(Message edited by Salmonella on May 30, 2005)

 

[nate]

Hi Andrew,

Those are C. orientalis, in my opinion. I've been lucky enough to see photographs of the ventral pattern of preserved orphicus from China and they are quite distinct and consistent with the type description by Rische. Your animal shows typical orientalis coloration. I don't see anything different with the tail, head, or skin.

 

[paul]

Nate, I think you are right!
Here some information David Wake wrote to me:
"Cynops orphicus is poorly known but we have a large series in this museum, obtained in the 1930's. The largest specimen was 64.4 mm snout to vent with a 51.5 mm tail (female). The largest male is 50.6 mm snout to vent with a 36.1 mm tail. Mean size of females is 53.3 mm Snout to vent, of males is 46.4 mm."
I think orphicus has more dark parts on its belly and throat. Look here:
http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=aw_lists_genera_&enlarge=1111+1111+1111+0748

Paul

 

[paul]

@Andrew, this are very nice newts!
And it is very interesting, that you got 3 of this oddly coloured Cynops. We do not know enough about the Chinese urodela.
My idea: keep them separately, breed them and see the offspring!
If this are typical orientalis (I think they are), a lot of the offspring should look black like other orientalis.
Each year I have a lot of typical Cynops breeding. But sometimes there are some individual which are more brownish.
See here:
http://de.geocities.com/paul_bachhausen/cynops/C_e_p_brauner.htm

Paul

(Message edited by Paul_B on May 31, 2005)

 

[paris]

orientalis have a large natural range, so the possibility of sub species existing is not ruled out, so even if you have what is currently a form of orientalis -best bet is to keep them separate and breed them with each other. since all 3 came from the same shipment and look distinctly different there is a chance they may later be distinguished by the 'splitters' as a separate species, but even if not-they are visually different and this distinction-IMHO-should be preserved.

 

[pollywog]

thanks for the input guys & girls.