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Yahilles

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Poznań, Poland
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Display Name
Janusz Wierzbicki
Cynops ensicauda and C. orientalis REALLY shouldn't be in one genus... it's like comparing Lissotriton to Triturus!
Here are the males (ensicauda 12 cm, orientalis 6,5 cm):
yahilles-albums-comparisons-picture10883-males.jpg


I have more photos (i made a session in photo aquarium - i don't keep those species together) but i can't upload more pics on this forum account.
 
Look at the difference between a person of African descent and a person of European descent. The differences are much more appearent than in those two newts. Yet a black man and a white woman can have a baby, and that baby can have a baby with an Asian baby, so on down the line. We are the same SPECIES let alone genus. I never understood what the whole "diving into subspecies" obesession was anyway. It can't just be an Ambystoma tigrinum, it has to be mavortium, or californiense, or even a subspecies of that. Correct me if I'm wrong but Lissotriton and Triturus used to be used to describe the same genus right? All of this scientific jargon is giving me a headache, and the newts a personality disorder!

I understand that dividing into subspecies gives you more of an idea to an animals location in the wild, but if an animal looks like another animal, and can breed with that animal, then they have to be in the same species? Genus at least. Someone please, feel free to prove me wrong. Im not trying to sound angry.

Also are you mixing the two species or are they put together for photo time only?
 
Ltdanicecream, black and white men, and any other human "race" are so closely related it´s ridiculous to actually have a "race" subdivision. In taxonomy race is synonim of subspecies. But the genetic distance between any given human is too small to consider any subspecies subclassification, there´s just one. We are all Homo sapiens sapiens.
The whole race thing comes from a theory that some anthropologist (can´t remember who) with some dangerously racist ideas, found extremely convinient. It´s, all in all, a cultural thing. We have a mental classification of ethnicities, and for us, the differences are extremely obvious, but it has little or no genetic basis. There is more genetic variation between african inhabitants than between them and anyone else. Think of it more as in terms of "human morphs", pretty much like in axolotls xDD

Human taxonomy has been extremely influenced by our own ego as the "supreme species" and in an internal level, by pure, bloody minded racism. There are many taxonomic mistakes that are recognized worldwide simply because it´s convinient. Human races are one of those, and another great example is the fact that humans and chimpanzees and bonobos should be placed in the same genus (either Pan or Homo, who cares, it just doesn´t happen because people don´t want to be the same genus as a "monkey").

Anyway, there is a much bigger genetic distance between, say Notophthalmus viridescens viridescens and N.viridescens piaropicola, than there is between any humans.

As for Lissotriton and Triturus, they were included, with Ichthyosaura, under the genus Triturus. Bare in mind, however, that Triturus, at some points in the history of biology, included pretty much all newts (yes, even Cynops). It was a mess...and with the introduction of genetic analysis, it just fell apart...
Today´s clasification makes SOOOOO much more sense xD

Specific and subspecific classifications are important. I personally think it´s actually quite dangerous to ignore these differences and consider a large number of populations the same thing. Conservation whise it´s tricky.


Yanusz, i was blown away by the differences between C.pyrrhogaster and C.orientalis when i got my group. Current taxonomical theories are placing C.ensicauda and C.pyrrhogaster together (they´ll probably keep the name Cynops). The other Cynops have been proposed to be changed to the genus Hypselotriton.
Obviously there is MUCH more than just size differences to back this up. I wonder if and when this taxonomical change will be introduced.


PS: The traditional definition of "species" certainly dictated that if two animals can create fertile descendance, they have to be the same species. Current knowledge on hybridism, has forced this notion of species to be changed. There are fertile hybrids not just from different species, but from different genera!

PS2: Sorry for the speech, i hear a word about taxonomy and go mental xD
 
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It can't just be an Ambystoma tigrinum, it has to be mavortium, or californiense, or even a subspecies of that. Correct me if I'm wrong but Lissotriton and Triturus used to be used to describe the same genus right?
So maybe we should just put every caudate in species Salamandra salamandra? Just because you don't like different names don't mean taxonomy is senseless.
 
No, but I dont think we should have three different species for the same salamander..

Also it is not beign racist to say there are differences between two humans.
It is racist to say, however, that one is better because of that. No problem about the lecture I'm sure anyone who reads it will be englightened, I know I was.

"PS: The traditional definition of "species" certainly dictated that if two animals can create fertile descendance, they have to be the same species."

Thats where I was going haha
 
Scientists like to crack their heads open with stuff like that. I say, let 'em, and I'll just delve as deep or shallow as I want. The beauty of being a layman hobbyist.
 
Very nice, Janusz!
I know it´s off-topic, but i´m curious...what did you use to achieve such a nice red coloration in your C.orientalis, commercial powders or natural foods? I´m assuming the ones in the pictures are CB because they look just like my CB male. Correct me if i´m wrong.
 
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All of my orientalis are WC (at least i think so - my females were LTC adults when i got them, funny thing is that previous owner who kept them for short time recieved them from guy who thought they're lizards! The male was 5 cm long when i recieved him with three other newts who were most likely WC), i don't think they're red, looking at the pics i can say in real the colors are slightly brighter, nothing special compared to newts i saw on this and other forums. Maybe comparison with relatively yellow ensicauda makes them look so red?
The most usual foods i use for them are:
-Frozen / live bloodworms
-Frozen / live artemia
-Earthworms
-Daphnias (in spring)
And for addition i use things like bean weevils, firebrats, tweezer-fed "Red" shrimps / bad developed newt larvae, waxworms, woodlice, rarely little guppies. And they eat their own eggs, of course.
 
Ah, i see.
I´m sorry, i thought they could have been CB because those males look little, just like mine. They share a kind of baby-face that my old male surely doesn´t have xD
 
Yeah, this one is pretty strange- he seem to be very small and petty compared to other two males i had, which also makes him look totally cute. Anyway, he does his work properly - it's second year i raise his children ;)
 
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