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teesha
Guest
i wanna know what are the colours of the parents which will increase the chances of having the most varied coloured offspring, like a chance to get many different colours out of them???
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sharn
Guest
you either get one or the other colour wise, like you cant get half black and half white on one axie (man its hard to explain!). sometimes you may get half and halfs but very rarely. if your parents are say wildtype and leucistic you will probably get around the 50/50 mark but might get some albinos etc if one of the parents hold the gene.
im not to up on the whole genetics thing, very confusing and hard to explain but joan knows heaps, lets hope she sees this post!
im not to up on the whole genetics thing, very confusing and hard to explain but joan knows heaps, lets hope she sees this post!
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joan
Guest
It depends on the genetics of the parents. If you have wildtypes that are recessive for albino, leucistic, and melanoid, and you cross them, then you'll get a mix of wildtype, albinos, melanoids, leucistics, etc. But there's no way to tell what color offspring an axolotl will have just by looking at them.
michael
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You tell the phenotype (what genes are expressed) by looking at the animal. You tell the genotype (actual genetic makeup) by breeding the animal. Out of one breeding I had leucistic, melanoid, white albino, and wild type offspring. If you are real organized you can figure out the genotypes of your animals by doing different crosses. I just like to mix the axolotls up and see what happens.
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teesha
Guest
yes, i no quite a bit on genetics as i studied it last year in biology....so thanks guys... I did some research but i haven't read anywhere that tells the full genotype of the colours.... Like it just says that leucistics have d/d or something, like they don't mention the a/a ax/ax...ect.. if it is part of it too...
I hate how they don't come with a pedigree!!!! ARGH! lol.... i don't wanna breed my poor axys to death when i get them just to see what their genotype is... Oh wellz... I do know that crossing over can occur, or a freak mutation....i really wish this happens! how exciting! so that will increase the odds of having another colour. i don't wanna get 2 wild type incase all the babies turn wild type... Anyways!!!
betta shut up b4 i go on and on... lol
I hate how they don't come with a pedigree!!!! ARGH! lol.... i don't wanna breed my poor axys to death when i get them just to see what their genotype is... Oh wellz... I do know that crossing over can occur, or a freak mutation....i really wish this happens! how exciting! so that will increase the odds of having another colour. i don't wanna get 2 wild type incase all the babies turn wild type... Anyways!!!
betta shut up b4 i go on and on... lol
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sharn
Guest
just a quick note- having one of each sex doesnt mean they will breed! ive had 3 males and one female in a tank together for over a year and nothings happened, tanks fine they just dont seem to want to, not that it bothers me! personally i wouldnt like doing full water changes every day, hatching/breeding live foods etc etc, doing daily water changes of 75% on my discus is enough for me let alone 20+ contaniers. do you have people to buy all these axies? i think it was joan that was left with some still after 6 months!! its hard work, time and money so have a good think
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stipe
Guest
Teesha i read you said somthing about a freak mutation. If you search through the forum you will see that one or her baby axies had a arm sticking out of her arm!!! (s)he had 3 arms and 2 legs!
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joan
Guest
Stipe, that's not a freak mutation. That's an incomplete amputation causing stem cell stimulation and regrowth.
Breakdown of axolotl genetics: D/x = dark, whether or not the color cells migrate off the neural crest. A/x = albino genes, a/a being albino, meaning no melanophores develop. M/x = iridophore development, m/m is melanoid, the lack of iridophore development. Ax/x = xanthophore development, ax/ax = the lack of xanthophores, meaning they have no yellow. Axanthic axolotls are extremely weak and rarely live past a few days of hatching.
All the color genes are completely independent. That is, they're all inherited differently, and are not linked to each other in any way.
If you don't know the genotype of the parents, there's no way of telling what colors of offspring you'll have. I know that my 2 adult wildtype males are possibly recessive for melanoid, as their brother is a melanoid. I know my 1 wildtype juvenile is possibly recessive for leucistic (his momma was leucistic), and recessive for melanoid, as his sibling is melanoid, and probably recessive for axanthic, as I had one hatch quite dark, very blue, and die a few days after hatching.. So I know for sure I have 2 adult males at: D/x, M/x, A/x, AX/x, who are probably D/D, M/m, A/A, AX/AX. I have 1 adult male who is D/x, m/m, A/x, AX/x, who is probably D/D, m/m, A/A, AX/AX (as all 3 of my adult males are siblings).
I have one juvenile who is D/d, M/x, A/x, AX/ax (I know he is D/d because his mother was leucistic, and he is probably M/m since his sibling is melanoid, and probably AX/ax as one sibling was a probably axanthic) and one juvenile who is D/d, m/m, A/x, AX/ax (again, because I know the mother was leucistic, and it is melanoid, and one sibling was a probably axanthic). Now, if you understand that, you're a real nerd.
I had 8 juveniles hatched in March, and I finally got rid of the last ones in November, and I still had to keep 2! That was just 8 juveniles, I couldn't imagine trying to get rid of 200+.
(Message edited by Joan on February 05, 2006)
Breakdown of axolotl genetics: D/x = dark, whether or not the color cells migrate off the neural crest. A/x = albino genes, a/a being albino, meaning no melanophores develop. M/x = iridophore development, m/m is melanoid, the lack of iridophore development. Ax/x = xanthophore development, ax/ax = the lack of xanthophores, meaning they have no yellow. Axanthic axolotls are extremely weak and rarely live past a few days of hatching.
All the color genes are completely independent. That is, they're all inherited differently, and are not linked to each other in any way.
If you don't know the genotype of the parents, there's no way of telling what colors of offspring you'll have. I know that my 2 adult wildtype males are possibly recessive for melanoid, as their brother is a melanoid. I know my 1 wildtype juvenile is possibly recessive for leucistic (his momma was leucistic), and recessive for melanoid, as his sibling is melanoid, and probably recessive for axanthic, as I had one hatch quite dark, very blue, and die a few days after hatching.. So I know for sure I have 2 adult males at: D/x, M/x, A/x, AX/x, who are probably D/D, M/m, A/A, AX/AX. I have 1 adult male who is D/x, m/m, A/x, AX/x, who is probably D/D, m/m, A/A, AX/AX (as all 3 of my adult males are siblings).
I have one juvenile who is D/d, M/x, A/x, AX/ax (I know he is D/d because his mother was leucistic, and he is probably M/m since his sibling is melanoid, and probably AX/ax as one sibling was a probably axanthic) and one juvenile who is D/d, m/m, A/x, AX/ax (again, because I know the mother was leucistic, and it is melanoid, and one sibling was a probably axanthic). Now, if you understand that, you're a real nerd.
I had 8 juveniles hatched in March, and I finally got rid of the last ones in November, and I still had to keep 2! That was just 8 juveniles, I couldn't imagine trying to get rid of 200+.
(Message edited by Joan on February 05, 2006)
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teesha
Guest
Sharn Steadman i have pet shops around that are willing to tank any that i can't sell on my own, there are about 5 pet shops near by so im in no shortage of buyers...is till haven't got one axy yet, but i will in 2 weeks for my bday. And when i said freak mutation i meant like a harlequin or oddbald...but yeah the leg was just a regenerated limb...but have you herd of a farm with donkeys with one head and two bodies and cows with six legs n stuff? A man felt sorry for them when a local farm was going to cull them but he just helps them to live their life without breeding future generatiions....he jut saves them, which is awesome! but i didn't mean an axy with like 12 legs, which still wouldn't bother me, or the axy i doubt!
Thanx so much Joan S. for all your knowledge! It is so kind of you to share!! You really are awesome!
And so knowledgable and smart....u must really love genetics! i do too! but it's a bit tricky as different sites have used different symbols, as u use an x if it is unknown or not important if its dominant or not and another site uses +....so yeh, And also i found just some comments ppl have said to be contradicting sometimes...like one site really confused me!!! but i think i get it now....not so hard anymore!
Thanx a lot u guys! Been great help!
Yeah i haven't yet purchased them but the first time mine breed, which i'll wait till the female is at least 20 cm, i'll want to only look after 20 eggs, and not all will hatch, or survive....lucky me i have a pond outside and there are about 1 million trillion daphnia and i have no fish in it so i know that there's no disease :> Also, there are always wrigglers and bloodworms ofcourse! So feeding the bubs wont be a problem at all!! and i wonder if this is a nifty idea to keep the larvae in one tank but to seperate them in cups or tubs within the same tank? Do you understand? Has it been tried?? Just wonderin'!
Thanx so much Joan S. for all your knowledge! It is so kind of you to share!! You really are awesome!
Thanx a lot u guys! Been great help!
Yeah i haven't yet purchased them but the first time mine breed, which i'll wait till the female is at least 20 cm, i'll want to only look after 20 eggs, and not all will hatch, or survive....lucky me i have a pond outside and there are about 1 million trillion daphnia and i have no fish in it so i know that there's no disease :> Also, there are always wrigglers and bloodworms ofcourse! So feeding the bubs wont be a problem at all!! and i wonder if this is a nifty idea to keep the larvae in one tank but to seperate them in cups or tubs within the same tank? Do you understand? Has it been tried?? Just wonderin'!
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sharn
Guest
people seperate them according to size as babies are cannabalistic, the bigger ones will eat the smaller ones if they can catch them! alot of people buy a few tubs and sort them out
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joan
Guest
Teesha, if you look around in the archives, there's a post about someone (can't remember who, sorry!) who created a novel larval-containment thing. They cut the bottoms off plastic cups, and glued them all to a large piece of mesh (a bunch of cups sitting ontop of one piece of mesh).
They then lowered the mesh/cup contraption into a tub until water was almost to the rim of the cup and put one larvae in each cup. To change water, they just picked up the whole thing (larvae and all!) and put it in a new tub with fresh water. This would really only work if you had older larvae eating food that wouldn't fall through the mesh, or use smaller mesh.
They then lowered the mesh/cup contraption into a tub until water was almost to the rim of the cup and put one larvae in each cup. To change water, they just picked up the whole thing (larvae and all!) and put it in a new tub with fresh water. This would really only work if you had older larvae eating food that wouldn't fall through the mesh, or use smaller mesh.
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teesha
Guest
Sharn i have herd that once the larvae reach about 2 cm they do become cannibalistic and eat the smaller larvae. Hungry buggers!!! Yeah i was thinking of getting a few tubs, especially for the first time round. But if i'm gunna raise a lot down the track i may consider putting them in cups in a tub just to ensure they don't feast on their sibling.
Wow! I must have read that persons mind, Joan. I jut was even thinking to create a grid like thing so it seperates the larvae into squares....but i had no idea what to make it out of....see i was just brain storming as i do!! I dream a lot, they rarely come true, but i'm actually getting an axolotl!!! WOw....14 days left!!! Thanx for bothering to reply again Joan!
Wow! I must have read that persons mind, Joan. I jut was even thinking to create a grid like thing so it seperates the larvae into squares....but i had no idea what to make it out of....see i was just brain storming as i do!! I dream a lot, they rarely come true, but i'm actually getting an axolotl!!! WOw....14 days left!!! Thanx for bothering to reply again Joan!
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teesha
Guest
only 11 days till i get my axy!! Joan could you explain that contraption again...i've been trying to get my head around it. Is it the tops of the cups stuck to the mesh? and what was used to stick the cups to the mesh? Was the mesh stiff or just similar to a fish net fabric sort of thing?? Thanx! Just wanted to clear it up better in my head....that's a better idea than what i had...i wasn't really considering the pint of water changes. Iv'e been modifying my idea and i recon i should tape or attach a web of cups so they are each attached to form like a mat of cups, then i can punch holes in the bottom or sides ( id probably do that first) and when i need to change the water i can just lift the cups up and put them in a new container! similar to the suggestion above actually, but oh wellz...i'll still brainstorm...i could find something better!
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joan
Guest
First off, this only works for larger larvae eating food that's too big to fall through the mesh. You can keep them communally until they start being cannibalistic.
Take a plastic cup (the ones for picnics and whatnot). Cut off the bottom. Use aquarium sealant to attach the bottom-less cups to a plastic screen. They have this for crafts or sewing up here, you could use any non-metal mesh, but rigid mesh would probably be best, unless you create a support system to hold all the cups up.
But unless you plan on raising hundreds of larvae (BAD IDEA!!), then this is kind of overkill.
You should probably make sure your axolotl is healthy and its habitat is adequate before you think about breeding. Then you need to consider all the time (daily water changes, at least twice daily feedings), money (tiny, live food is VERY expensive. I spend about $10 a week on food for just one little animal right now), and energy it takes to raise larvae.
Then, what are you going to do with them all when they get bigger? Do you have homes for them all, or will you hand them out to pet shops who don't know how to take care of them and will sell them to anyone who wants one? A lot of people don't think through breeding their animals.
Take a plastic cup (the ones for picnics and whatnot). Cut off the bottom. Use aquarium sealant to attach the bottom-less cups to a plastic screen. They have this for crafts or sewing up here, you could use any non-metal mesh, but rigid mesh would probably be best, unless you create a support system to hold all the cups up.
But unless you plan on raising hundreds of larvae (BAD IDEA!!), then this is kind of overkill.
You should probably make sure your axolotl is healthy and its habitat is adequate before you think about breeding. Then you need to consider all the time (daily water changes, at least twice daily feedings), money (tiny, live food is VERY expensive. I spend about $10 a week on food for just one little animal right now), and energy it takes to raise larvae.
Then, what are you going to do with them all when they get bigger? Do you have homes for them all, or will you hand them out to pet shops who don't know how to take care of them and will sell them to anyone who wants one? A lot of people don't think through breeding their animals.
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teesha
Guest
Thanx for explaining! Yes i agree Joan. I would like to try my hand at breeding, but for the first time i would only like to hatch 20 eggs....some won't hatch....it's a possibility they will all survive....I just really hate the idea that they will be eating each other or nipping at each other. I also will be buying a baby axolotl and I will wait till the female is 20 cm at least before i even think about breeding her!! I want her to grow nice, strong and healthy! I have quite a lot of time since i'm doing a tafe course on animal care and management that starts mostly at 10 and ends mostly at 3 so i can do a change before i go and when i get back. I'm an early riser! ( usually but not in my holidays! )
i was actually going to put an add up to sell them (not on the site) and if i end up keeping them for more than 1 month i was going to give them to a reputable pet shop. 90% of all the pet shops in Australia aren't dodgy like the pet shop stories i hear from america. Especially the ones nearby, they are all extremely finicky and very expensive!!...i worked at one for work experience and there's a lot of work that they do!!! I remember feeding the axolotls when i was there actually.... it kinda freaked me out that i had to feed it a real live worm! I felt sorry for the worm! but it's the cycle of life isn't it?
I've bred quite a few animals before, and if worse come to worse i have a bunch of animal loving friends and relatives that would adore having one of these strange creatures!
My aunty treats her dogs like children and favours them over her own husband and sons!!! It's hilarious since one of her sons are phobic of all animals! and she never has liked animals emotionally before! She turned the complete opposite!
i was actually going to put an add up to sell them (not on the site) and if i end up keeping them for more than 1 month i was going to give them to a reputable pet shop. 90% of all the pet shops in Australia aren't dodgy like the pet shop stories i hear from america. Especially the ones nearby, they are all extremely finicky and very expensive!!...i worked at one for work experience and there's a lot of work that they do!!! I remember feeding the axolotls when i was there actually.... it kinda freaked me out that i had to feed it a real live worm! I felt sorry for the worm! but it's the cycle of life isn't it?
I've bred quite a few animals before, and if worse come to worse i have a bunch of animal loving friends and relatives that would adore having one of these strange creatures!
My aunty treats her dogs like children and favours them over her own husband and sons!!! It's hilarious since one of her sons are phobic of all animals! and she never has liked animals emotionally before! She turned the complete opposite!
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teesha
Guest
i dunno if i mentioned it but a cross of:
D/d M/m AX/ax A/a
d/d m/m ax/ax a/a
is the perfect cross, like so long as one parent has a heterozygous gene ( ie X/x) and the other has the recessive (x/x) then it will al work out fo have half of the babies one type, adnthe other half the other, but ofcourse in defferent proportions, like some will have dark with shiny but no yellow or only colour on top half and then some will have no dark but with the same. So it will give an endless supply of different coloured offspring ( i was bored and feeling smart....lol!)
D/d M/m AX/ax A/a
d/d m/m ax/ax a/a
is the perfect cross, like so long as one parent has a heterozygous gene ( ie X/x) and the other has the recessive (x/x) then it will al work out fo have half of the babies one type, adnthe other half the other, but ofcourse in defferent proportions, like some will have dark with shiny but no yellow or only colour on top half and then some will have no dark but with the same. So it will give an endless supply of different coloured offspring ( i was bored and feeling smart....lol!)