Worms!

[jesper]

Well, I thought I would ask if any people around here culture their own worms.

For those who do; What worms do you use and how are their reproduction rate?

I am currently culturing Eisenia Hortensis(Dendrobaena veneta) and I think their reproduction rate is a little bit on the low side. I was wondering if others have the same problem and if you have any tips on how to optimize things. Compared to Eisenia fetida Eisenia hortensis have a slow reproduction rate I know and I am thinking about switching over to fetida. Any advise on using fetida as food for newts?

I keep my Hortensis at about 20C with lots of water added to the soil(10-15l of soil), their reproduction rate is supposed to be about 1 hatchling per adult per week but I am nowhere near this.

What do you feed your worms with? Any special tips on loading them with calcium?

Cheers
Jesper

 

[mike]

http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Amphibiary/frogfood2.html#10
20C is OK.
"Lots of water" sounds wrong - they don't like it too wet.
Ground eggshells provide calcium and grit for worms digestion.
Feed exclusively with ReadyBrek (instant oats fortified with lots of good stuff):
http://www.weetabix.co.uk/brands/readybrekorig/default.asp
DON'T use Eisenia fetida - your caudates won't eat them and you run the risk of turning them off earthworms forever.

 

[jesper]

I knew I would get a reply from you Mike! Thanks!

Actually, the optimized humidity for Hortensis is about 70-80% - That's why I add lots of water.
Ah, I am very familiar with your homepage Mike
I am already using ground eggshells like you, just thought I'd check for alternative ways(just for the sake of it). Well I use oatmeals too - I am in sweden and we dont have "ReadyBrek".

Regarding Eisenia fetida - I have heard this "rumour" before, but have you actually tried it yourself? I think it was Rob who had tried feeding fetida to his caudates with success!
They are an attractive alternative due to their fast reproductive rate.

What I am really interested in Mike is how many worms you harvest per liter soil per week in a going colony!

Cheers!
Jesper

 

[morg]

Jesper
If you tried feeding fetida to your newts or salamanders you would probably get the same results as I did.
Almost all species Ive kept will eat the dendras, but most wont touch them.
Out of the species Ive tried them with here are the results.
Fire salamanders-wont eat
Tiger salamanders-wont eat
various toads-grab them, but spit back out.
Cynops orientalis-wont eat
Pleurodeles waltl-do eat
Tylototryton verrucosus-do eat
Triturus karelinii-some eat some dont
Triturus alpestrus-wont eat
Triturus cristatus-some eat some dont
Triturus marmoratus-wont eat

I now do not bother with fetida at all, and when feding worms mainly use earthworms dug out of my garden, other times I use Dendras.





(Message edited by morg on January 11, 2004)

 

[john]

... and so it just goes to show that Tylototriton verrucosus will eat anything.

To everyone: How do you know that you really do have Eisenia foetida?

 

[morg]

With me, I have kept a worm composting bin going from around 9 years or so ago.
This bin came complete with fetida.
If I remember correctly, Dendras were just being introduced to the worm composting scene then, with only redworms[Lubriculus rubellus?]
and Tiger worms[eisenia fetida] being commonly available.
Also the smelly yellow liquid that fetida exude when cut gives it away.

 

[jesper]

Hi Morg!
Thanks for the info,
maybe I can use eisenia foetida(fetida) for my waltls then and hopefully for verrucosus when I get some....

Btw most people call them fetida but I believe foetida is the correct spelling. Since foetida is an "archaic spelling", people tend to drop the o.

As to identifying worms I think it is very difficult. Eisenia Andreii requires a taxonomic dissection to differentiate from Eisenia fetida.

I called the firm who cultivates the worms I got, he said they were dendrobaena veneta(Eisenia hortensis), I think he knew what he was talking about.

Btw check articles by Kelly Slocum she seems to know a lot on this subject.

Morg do you have harvest info?

 

[morg]

Jesper
I don't think that the spelling is too important.
I have two books here, one I don't recall the name of, the other called Earthworms unlimited by Amy Brown.
Both of these spell it fetida, while I have a booklet on breeding worms to sell on, which uses foetida.

For harvesting both Dendras and fetida-foetida, all I do is lift up the sheets of damp newspaper that I have covering the compost and remove worms congregated there.

I did once try propagating compost worms in large amounts to give away to people wanting to set up worm bins, or who wanted to introduce worms to compost heaps or bins.
In a relatively short while I was producing hundreds of eggs capsules per week.
If you are interested in how I did it feel free to email me.

 

[john]

Morg, dendras as you call them exude the same liquid when cut. Eisenia and Dendrobaena are a bit of a taxonomical mess. I am beginning to doubt that you have real Dendrobaena worms - I think it more likely that you had one of the other types of worm. I would also hazard a guess to say that your Eisenia were in fact Dendrobaena if you were relying solely on the yellow liquid for identification.

With regard to availability, as far as I'm aware the Dendrobaena worms have been available for years in the UK. Certainly they were easy to acquire while I was there.

 

[morg]

John
The Dendra worms I have here were bought originally from www.wigglywigglers.co.uk
Sold as Dendrobeana veneta, and although some exude a small amount of liquid, most dont, and it also does not smell as with fetida.
To be sure of this fact I have just cut one in half sniffed at it and put it in my verrucosus set up.
No smell, and with this worm, no liquid.

As for Dendras always being available, maybe Im mixed up with how long ago it was I set up my original worm composting bin,but at that time the only place I saw Dendras available was chase organics, and they were over three times the cost of the smaller tigers and reds that were the only ones available from worm composting companies at that time.

 

[sara]

Just to add to the list of who won't eat Eisenia foetida. My axolotls hate them.
I'm taking notes here as I have been trying to locate lumbriculus rubelus without success here in the US. How big are the Dendrobeana veneta and can they be cultured indoors?

 

[morg]

Sarah
It is also impossible to track down Lumbriculus rubelus here in England nowadays.
The Dendrobeana are a lot larger than both rubeles and foetida so worm breeders here deal mainly in the Dendras now.
The Dendras can be cultured indoors in the same way as the other composting worms.

 

[jesper]

Hi all!
To make things a little more clearer:
The correct name of Dendrobaena veneta is Eisenia Hortensis. They changed it a couple of years ago.
So lets start talking about hortensis instead.

Morg - I dont care about the spelling fetida / foetida - I just noticed that John used the foetida spelling and wanted to clarify why he uses this spelling

Yes, some of my hortensis exude this yellowish liquid too but it doesnt smell - just like Morgs's.

Btw hortensis are bigger than foetida, maybe this can be used as ID. I read that foetida never are above 10cm while my hortensis are bigger than that.

 

[morg]

Jesper
The name change here in England does not seem to have caught on, as all the companies Ive seen selling the worms here call them Dendroboena veneta.
I believe that they are called another name altogether in the USA?

The main thing for this thread though is that Dendras[hortensis] seem to make a good food for most amphibians where as fetida[foetida] do not.
I cannot answer the original question on the thread though about breeding the Dendras as Ive never really tried breeding large quantities of these worms.

 

[john]

Morg: I get a Dendrobaena species (in fact I've been getting them for years from the same supplier) that exude the yellow liquid all the time. I have had worms from different suppliers that look similar but exude little liquid (like what you describe). However, I have never had a problem getting all of my species to eat the worms I currently use, as long as I cut the worms and let the liquid be washed off in another container of water. This often becomes unnecessary after a few feedings because the newts get used to the taste.

I've successfully fed these to Tylototriton verrucosus, Tylototriton kweichowensis, tiger salamanders and axolotls.

 

[mike]

I got my Dendras[hortensis] from www.wigglywigglers.co.uk like Morg. They do extrude a yellow liquid from the anterior segments when molested, but that doesn't mean it smells or tastes as bad as that from foetida. I've never found and animal that would touch worms from my garden compost bins, and had several experiences with animals who subsequently refused all earthworms when I tried feeding foetida. In general, I find terrestrial salamanders refuse Dendras[hortensis] but are happy to take real "earthworms" from my garden as opposed to "litter worms" such as Dendras[hortensis]. Aquatic newts love Dendras[hortensis] (not just verrucosus!).

Breeding true burrowing earthworms is just not practical, but you can of course harvest them seasonally by digging or collect "nightcrawlers" from grass on warm wet nights. A word of warning - don't deplete your lawn of "nightcrawlers" or the grass will suffer in the long term. Harvest them at a sustainable level from parks and golf courses!

 

[mike]

Oh yes, Jesper - if you keep your cultures wet you will get more problems with mites, springtails and worst of all, the dreaded fungus gnat infestation. Keeping them slightly drier (not dry, just not sopping) helps allieviate these problems.

 

[morg]

Mike
Do all of your worms from wiggly wigglers exude the liquid?

Ive just finished a feeding session and out of the 8 worms I had to cut into smaller sizes, only 3 produced any kind of liquid.
Did you buy the worms for feeding to garden birds, or from the composting section?
This last batch of mine were the small ones for birds, which have now grown on.

 

[mike]

I'm pretty sure the stuff wiggly wigglers sends out is a mixture of species, whatever they label them as. The best bet are "redworms", which are not commercially available in the UK, but you can find them under bricks and boards etc in most gardens. This are quite small and redder then foetida. However, getting a big culture going with them would take a long time because they reproduce in culture more slowly than the Dendros (that's why the worm people like selling Dendros so much).

 

[jesper]

What do you mean with "redworms" Mike? What is the scientific name?

Btw - foetida reproduces 10 times as fast as hortensis, this means that if you get a mixture of these species one will soon enough end up with foetida only.