Why does everyone want to mix species?

[ecoreptiles]

Ok, not everyone, but the average person who starts getting interested in amphibians and reptiles seems to always want multiple species in the same tank. WHY?????????????????

Do they start with a fish, then get a newt, next decide they need a frog, and then finally add a gecko to create an entire "ecosystem"?
Is that what they're trying to do?

Is it just because they're warped by the popularity of aquarium fish and believe amphibians can mix equally well?

Is it because few people take time to do the research, and continue to do the research, in order to provide the best possible environment for their animals?

Do these people believe whatever the pet store employees tell them?
It's a giant fire belly! Keep the water at 80'F! They can live with other newts and even fish! They eat turtle pellets! They like being handled!

I recently met someone who works in a pet store, and she keeps a chinese water dragon with a fire-belly toad. She said her boss does that all the time and there's no problem. I can only explain why IT IS A PROBLEM once and it's immediately obviously if they're even hearing what I'm saying to them... So could this be happening also because of ego? As in, "My animals get along fine. You must be stupid if you can't make several species co-exist in a single enclosure."

The worst species mixing I've ever seen was at a large chain fish store in Ottawa. In one 20 gallon enclosure, they had 2 scared and skinny newly imported Tylototrion spp., five Bombina orientalis, one "green tree frog" (?!), and one unidentified salamander (Ambystoma jeffersonianum? A. laterale? Either way, probably illegal here!) that an employee finally told me was a "black newt" so that I would stop bugging him. I wonder if they fed them frozen/thawed bloodworms? They certainly didn't eat fish food flakes like the rest of their stock.

Thank you, Caudata.org for making sure I understand not to mix species like I did when I was 14.
Here's to species-specific tanks with happy inhabitants of equal size and temperament! :rofl:

 

[Abrahm]

I'm of the opinion that even mixing fish should be done with far more care and research than the average fishkeeper uses with the number of species per enclosure kept to a minimum. That said, I would think that reason people mix species has many different roots.

One that isn't mentioned that often is that only reptile (and occasionally amphibian) magazine on the US market promotes species mixing. I'll let you chew on that for a while. They basically say us single species enclosure people are crazy conservative.

Another reason I always came across was the "but they live together in the wild!" excuse. It's hard to point out that while, yes they do live together, that may mean they share several hundred cubic feet of space. Not exactly analogous to a ten gallon aquarium.

I've also found a group of people who just want to save space. They want that and that and that, but it would be so much easier to put them in one aquarium. I don't want to deal with three of them.

Well, most pet store employees are paid minimum wage and those that are actually willing to do their job do the thing their managers want: move product. I worked at a large chain pet store for nearly two years, the managers thought I was golden and I moved product, by gaining customer trust by giving good advice. Unfortunately those people are few and far between.

I think the stores do it to save money. The big chains don't mix probably because of public outcry, but the little stores tend to. My guess is that they mix because they don't know any better. They mostly know dogs, cats or fish and then they decide to carry reptiles because they are becoming popular. They only have three tanks, but dang, let's carry seven species!

Oh, and Chinese water dragons with fire belly toads? Are they full grown water dragons? My two water dragons would kill and eat that toad instantly. They go after my fingers when I clean their cage.

 

[ecoreptiles]

It is a babywater dragon, but maybe it's not even healthy in the first place?! Our juvenile Australian Water Dragon also goes after anything that moves (or anything that looks like yellow feeding tongs) and would definitely try to eat a toad! I warned her about her choice of species mixing. I don't think she listened, but maybe she will do some research about it later and decide to remove the toad before it gets hurt.

I am also careful with my fish, keeping my tanks "understocked" and limited to 3 or 4 species from the same localities.

Now that you mention it, I do recall a couple of articles in a reptile magazine being pro species mixing!
Thanks for the reply!

 

[freves]

Another point to keep in mind is that species mixing has been encouraged by many popular books on the American market. There was a time when most herp titles were published by TFH. There were a few good titles in their line but then they started flooding the market with ****. Along this same time (around the early nineties), Phillipe De Vosjoli began publishing his series of herp care titles along with the Vivarium magazine (which I miss!). Mr. DeVosjoli's books were/are by and large very well written with accurate information for the time. I have no doubt that those books saved many a leopard gecko, bearded dragon, and so on. Mr. DeVosjoli is also a huge proponent of mixed species vivariums. Even though he warns in his writings of being careful when doing so he goes on to advocate many mixes. Some of these are fine and some really should be avoided (such as mixing various species of Anolis together). Many of these books are still available and the otherwise intelligent, well meaning hobbyist (who also wants a mixed community of animals) will take some of his advice (while ignoring the precautions) and run with it. I have seen this happen personally. All in all this will be a constant topic of debate among keepers of small, vivarium friendly herps.
Chip

 

[dani]

Pet shops not knowing a) exactly what theyre selling and b) how to care for it present a huge problem and inform customers inncorrectly about how to house their new pets. a fairly large chain of petstores here in the uk is where i got my first newts cynops orientals from, and they had the poor things heated and in with dwarf clawed frogs, needless to say half the newts were either missing limbs and suffering with rot or half starved and suffering with the shine as they wouldnt eat the frozen bloodworm and were offered nothing else, i managed to nurse my 6 fire belly's back to health luckily. The employees like ecoreptiles said didnt look like they cared about the care advice i gave them tehy gave me a 'who the hell are you trying to tell me how to do my job look' mixed with a like i care vibe. On my second visit I ranted again and it must have done some good as now the newts at the store are in cool water and housed alone.

owners who know not to mix species and still do are irrisponsible and cruel, with the exception of experienced keepers who know what exceptions to species mixing can be made without it resulting in disaster. if it is an ego thing with some people than thats rather sad, sad that thats what makes them feel big and sad for the poor animals they own who may get eaten one day by their bigger tankmate.
Its nice to know that there are sites like this one to help owners to care for their caudates properly as the majority of people who species mix seem to just be ill informed and correct the problem once they know it exists.

rant over.....

For now....

 

[Alejandro]

mixing species

Yes, I agree 100% with Mr. Reves. De Vosjoli is a big advocate of mixing species.

 

[fishkeeper]

Also saves tank space.

Our LFS has a setup consisting of firebellied toads...any newts they get in, guppies, and treefrog tadpoles. While the animals look happy since it is a large naturalistic setup I'm sure their is conflict between at the very least the newts and the tadpoles...and possibly the toads.

 

[DosJax 12XU]

Haha, Phillip is always coming into the shop where I work. And although he does mension species mixing, It is a whole lot different when you have two species of day geckos or two kinds of anoles co-existing in a vivarium and then compairing them to different amphibians, or worse: reptiles AND amphibians. Amphibians can possibly "tox each other out" (which is what has been said at work), for example: if you mix taricha granulsa with a white's tree frog, if the frog were to come into contact with the newts toxic secretions or ingest the newt itself (or even an attempt), the frog would most likely die.

But I think it is best to play safe, and keep one species by itself. But I do not discourage mixing for everyone though, I keep e.e.klauberi with e.e.eschscholtzii together in groups. I also have gold dust day geckos with lined geckos. But I would strongly advise to keep far away from (just some examples I've seen): Rattlesnakes with leapard geckos, leaf tails with dart frogs, fire belly newts with fire belly toads, or anything of that sort.

 

[Kaysie]

Bruno, you and I think along the same lines. I wouldn't hesitate to place a spotted salamander in with a blue spotted salamander. I would probably pause at putting a spotted salamander in with my kenyan sand boa. There are some species that occur in the same habitat (and have even been found under the same log), and have the same general requirements. I wouldn't worry too much about mixing them in a large, naturalistic setup. But some species definitely shouldn't go together.

 

[freves]

I have never mixed anything with the salamanders other than isopods but in years past I had several larger enclosures that successfully combined anoles and dart frogs. De Vosjoli was quick to point out that all of the animals in a mixed species enclosure should be able to easily disappear from view at any given time, otherwise it is too crowded. I have always thought that this was a good rule of thumb in any housing, mixed species or not.
Chip

 

[ZebraDruid]

After reading info about frogs and salamanders in my Reptile/Amphibian field guide, I was appalled when a friend and I went to the Museum of Natural Science in Raleigh, NC, and I saw around 4 pickerel frogs in the same tank as a turtle. I tried emailing them, but no response... =/