Welfare of captive amphibians

peter5930

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I came across this and thought it might spark a discussion here. Are amphibians unsuited to captivity? Is it unethical to keep them in anything less that a spacious zoo exhibit? Are we unqualified to keep them and ignorant of or in denial about their welfare? (Reptile keepers can chip in too.)

www.apa.org.uk/norway/norwegian-reptiles.pdf

Animal welfare Poor animal welfare is endemic to reptile - and amphibian - keeping. The fact that hobbyist groups and individuals do not acknowledge this is testimony to their under - qualification to possess these animals and disseminate information on them. Captive reptiles and amphibians are subject to diverse negative physical stressors ranging from handling stress to thermal stress, and no vivaria other than extremely large and naturalistic designs — as seen in a very few exemplary zoo facilities — can be considered conducive to good welfare. Also, where amphibians are concerned, one can argue that the very nature of these animals and their dependence on adequate and clean water means that even more physical 'care' is required or rather they are less tolerant of poor conditions. All captive reptiles in the pet and hobbyist communities display captivity - stress related behaviour problems. These problems are directly due to the animals’ presence in artificial conditions. In some cases such as interaction with transparent boundaries (ITB) almost 100% of captive reptiles alone manifest this behaviour in almost all vivaria. Regardless of whether or not they are wild - caught or captive - bred these animals possess highly specific and sensitive physiologies and behaviourally f unction predominantly on innate (inherited - acquired) characteristics. They are wild, not domesticated, animals. Both biological and behavioural problems that are routinely found in captive reptiles and amphibians demonstrate and emphasise their unsuitability as ‘pet’ or hobbyist ‘collector’ animals.
My own opinion is that, while many amphibians do suffer in poor conditions, life in the wild isn't a walk in the park either, and in most cases, amphibians adapt well to captivity. It would be interesting to see a study of cortisol levels in wild vs captive amphibians. I suspect the captive amphibians would have lower cortisol levels (and be less stressed) than the wild ones.
 
I'll come back to this later but for now I'll say this:my tiger salamanders have a bigger enclosure than the ones in the zoo nearest to me(blackpool,UK).

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I find that abstract reactionary and sensationalistic. I was half expecting to see PETA in the sponsor list.
It simply isn´t true that all captive reptiles desplay signs of stress. Of course it happens. Nobody in their right mind could deny that there are plenty of animals in inadequate conditions that suffer. This is a problem that worries me deeply and should concern anyone who cares about animal welfare. To extrapolate from those cases to all captive animals is simply unjustified. There are plenty of animals in captivity that display all the right signs of being in peak condition. No reason to think specific behaviours are necessarily prevented or that stress levels are at all significant.

Their claim that amphibians require clean, adequate water is right, but we all know it´s perfectly possible to supply those conditions with little effort.

Either these people are just looking at very specific things like Tupinambis in small cages or Ceratophrys in bare tupperwares, or they are simply exagerating (lying) to promote their position. Which is something that i´ve seen various animal welfare organizations do.

I do take a certain amount of offense from this kind of thing because it presuposes that i´m either tremendously ignorant or that i would keep animals in captivity knowing that their welfare is compromised, which i definitely wouldn´t. Animal welfare is extremely important to me and i take it very seriously. I have no reason to think that any of my animals are suffering any kind of distress because of their captive conditions. All observed behaviours are perfectly normal.


I also have to disagree with the claim that they seem to make that even captive reptiles and amphibians count as wild animals, never as domesticated animals (perhaps because of this notion that "primitive" animals can´t be domesticated which is bull**** because a) they can and b) you are using the concept of domestication wrong). This is simply incorrect. There are numerous and very, very obvious examples of domestication in reptiles and amphibians. And it´s worrying to hear such claims from official organizations.
 
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Some people just plain have a thing against human-animal interactions of any kind, which manifests in it's most extreme form as the Animal Liberation Front (in my opinion, a group populated by a bunch of clueless idiots who don't even like animals). Check out this incident for an insight into the mindset of the kind of people I'm talking about:

Somebody watched “Born Free” too many times : Pharyngula

Saboteurs Cut Nets and Release 40,000 Fish In California | Animal Liberation Front-Line

Also, I found this when looking up the phrase "interaction with transparent boundaries" and thought it was an interesting read:

Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles - Google Books
 
If i´m not mistaken the Animal Liberation Front was responsible for one (possibly two) mass releases of american mink in the north of Spain (which have now spread even further than where i live and in large numbers). I would have a few words with each and everyone of the %&$*^/*)& that were responsible for that. What a bunch of morons...they have caused unimaginable damage to our ecosystems and have almost certainly assured the extention of our native mink species.

I could continue with my criticisms but this is probably not the place for all the expletives that would be required.

I fully agree that they are clueless idiots. The real problem is that they are dangerous clueless idiots.

PS: Ah, Pharyngula, i´m a big fan of PZ Myers!
 
I dont want to get to far off track with the ALF thing, but I wanted to add that I volunteer at a wildlife refuge, where we help animals recover then release them back into the wild. However there has to be 24 hour surveillance and locks on all the cages because people will try and release the animals before they are ready. If they stay in their cages for a while longer their chance of survival sky rockets. All they need to do is take two seconds to inform themselves and they would realize that what we are doing far exceeds what they do for animals. ALF are a bunch of uninformed eco-terrorists who do more harm then good and are too ignorant to realize it.


As for are inability to keep herps, that statement is purely untrue. Animals encounter different stresses in the wild and in captivity. In captivity they do not fear predation and therefore can wander their enclosure freely. They also have an unlimited supply of food readily available. As for handling stress. I never handle my clawed frogs, tadpoles, or ensatina. There is no need, pleasure comes from watching their behavior. Also this invisible boundary bullcrap doesnt seem to have a positive or negative effect how does one get lesions from smooth glass and not from climbing rough bark? I fail to see the point of this article. T
It has baseless statistical data and turns people off of keeping these wonderful creatures. Oh and I need my cages to be naturalistic right? Alright time to add some predatory animals to my enclosures...
 
I completely agree that this has no base to it. I like that you brought this to our attention. Honestly the attacks on herps have some foundations but certainly I would think no one on this forum would create such environments. We are all here because we love our herps and treat them thusly. I think I have owned some herps that live the sweet life and live 5 times longer than they would in the wild where stresses are everywhere.
Logan
 
Regardless of the moot points made in this article I also feel there is some truth to it. I believe the target audience to be those who know nothing of keeping the animal in which they are keeping. Although I would have worded the article completely different and not used the data used, I believe deep down they are trying to inform the uninformed keeper? I try to see some light in someone's work and I believe it to be the aim towards the unsuited keeper.

It seems that the majority of the public does not keep the animals in a suited condition. This comes from a lack of information, misinformation, or a lack of will to find information. Impaction hazards, thermal stress, and handling stress namely, seem to be symptoms of the uninformed keeper. The one who picks his snake up every day three times a day or the one who keeps his fire belly newt at 85 F. However, I feel that with forums such as this one (which are available world wide) and foundations whom exist purely to educate the public, solutions to these problems are becoming more attainable.

Again I dont agree with the article, I still believe strongly that we should continue keeping herps... Sorry for the eye sore of a response
 
I believe deep down they are trying to inform the uninformed keeper? I try to see some light in someone's work and I believe it to be the aim towards the unsuited keeper.

I think they were pretty clear that everybody who keeps herps , except for a "very few exemplary zoo facilities" were the target .
 
I think they were pretty clear that everybody who keeps herps , except for a "very few exemplary zoo facilities" were the target .

Unforunately I realized that after I posted... There is no hope for this article. Thank you for bringing that up I was hoping someone would.
 
I claim that my newts experience better living conditions than 90% of the domesticated dogs in my town (so do my dogs). I invite this Norwegian person to come visit and see for himself.
 
Oh, the joy of generalisation!

Unfortunately it seems that we keepers of exotics get lumped together with all sorts of folk who keep their snakes in racked boxes or adult bearded dragons in metre long vivs.

I help out with both wildlife and zoo rescue and recently a wildlife centre I know was given a beardie by the RSPCA. This caused a lot of anti-herp feeling but oddly enough when I pointed out the number of cats in need of rescue (an animal that can thrive in the wild and devastate ecosystems) nobody thought that we should ban the keeping of those..

Interestingly it seems that many people who are anti herp keeping haven't met a responsible keeper or a contented pet reptile. As for a lack of domestication, show me where the increasingly weird forms of leopard geckos, royal pythons and beardies occur in the wild.
 
They've probably created a similar report for captive mammals.

Critical comment.
Species: Domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris)

Risk to public health through biting and spread of infectious diseases such as rabies and toxocara.

Subject to problems: Requires regular exercise. Thermal intolerance - cannot survive in hot cars for extended periods. Displays social stress in the form of snarling and barking. Nervous disposition displayed by wagging tail. Interaction with transparent boundaries is frequent, especially when the postman delivers mail.
 
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Mark, you forgot to mention a critical point. Dogs are EVIL. :p

There is a great deal of misunderstanding about the herp world, we all know this. However, it has to be said that a great deal of the missunderstanding happens inside the amphibian-reptile keeping community. Of course the generalizations made in the article are absurd and simply untrue, but as asfouts said, that doesn´t mean we can ignore all the bad things and pat ourselves in the back thinking that just because the article is untrue, we are golden.
There are a lot of things that are very wrong with the hobby, at a general level most of them are intrinsically related to the mass production of aberrants. Not only does this disregard genetic fitness, by promoting aesthetics based selection and massive inbreeding, but it also promotes maintaining animals in bare minimum conditions (the best example are the well known racks). The other gigantic problem that to me is quite possibly the main source of animal suffering is the pet-trade and in this case i´m including both WC and CB animals.
It is easy for most of us to recognize those problems, particularly the issue of animals suffering in bad conditions at pet-shops, shows, etc.
However, we rarely consider our individual responsabilities seriously. I´m enormously glad that a significant fraction of the hobby is responsible and dedicated enough to provide captive conditions that are perfectly adequate and allow for high welfare standards. The problem is that usually this ends here. There is very little awareness about how domestication can negatively affect welfare. I find this really strange because this happens to the point where people will disregard or ignore obvious problems. This happens with every single domestic species, from dogs to cattle to poultry and canaries. The way we breed captive animals and the criteria we apply for selection (domestication) are phenomena responsible for a great deal of suffering. I think it´s worth emphasizing this because this is entirely our fault and our responsability, and we are failing misserably.
Captive reptiles and amphibians, which are indeed being domesticated, are being exposed to terrible standards of selection and massive levels of inbreeding with little or no positive selection. There is a huge price to be paid for this and it´s the animals who pay that price. If you are a hobbyist that claims to care about welfare, you have a responsability to consider the welfare implications of your practices, not just at a husbandry or dietary level.
I would hope that more and more people realize this, because as i said, there´s a lot more suffering to come otherwise.
 
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