Water Changes while Cycling

[Kochebi]

Hello again fellow axolotl enthusiasts. Well, my tank is finally in the full swing of cycling, but the levels of everything (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites) have skyrocketed, and are just about the maximum possible level that I can measure. I don't know why, but maybe it's the fact that I have four goldfish currently cycling a 10 gallon tank. Perhaps.

Anyway, my question this time around, is if I were to do, basically, a 100% water change (but keep the same filter) in the tank to try and lower the levels (because I've been doing regular 40-50% changes and they've remained high) would it upset the cycle? Would I have to start all over, or would I still be at the point I am now? Also, the fish would still be in there after I changed the water.

 

[Jonjey]

Well you aren't cycling yet if your ammonia is high...
But just do a large water change (50%-80%) every other day and it'll kick in eventually. If you have just a hang on back filter with the stock setup it won't cycle well anyway as they have virtually no biological media which is what the majority of a "cycle" is held in. I would go to the dollar store and buy a 6 pack of acrylic pot scrubbers for $1, take your carbon cartridge and cut the carbon out of it then put that back in with a few pot scrubbers behind it, they will hold a good amount of beneficial bacteria, enough for a 10 gallon for sure.
If you don't have a stock hob filter then ignore everything I've just said haha.
And remember that if your fish are in high ammonia water they will probably die sooner than later so keep up on water changes frequently until you know that your cycle is going. I would test ammonia every other day before water changes and eventually the ammonia should be less and less each time, once you get a very low reading your tank will be fine to go for a few days or a week etc then once ammonia is gone before water changes then you can wait a few weeks between changes.

 

[Kochebi]

The ammonia actually seems to be going down, it's just I guess I was worried since the Nitrates and Nitrites are at like, really high levels. I guess I should be asking if that's actually a concern?

 

[Jonjey]

The ammonia actually seems to be going down, it's just I guess I was worried since the Nitrates and Nitrites are at like, really high levels. I guess I should be asking if that's actually a concern?

It is. Ammonia gets eaten by basic beneficial bacteria, nitrite gets eaten by very established bacteria, nitrates don't. All three are bad. Basically keep doing water changes regularly, when ammonia stays away then it will be okay to start doing water changes less frequently as nitrites and nitrates take longer to build up.

 

[Skudo09]

When doing fish in cycling it is very important to keep the levels of nitrite, ammonia and nitrate within safe levels. The high levels can and probably have caused serious permanent damage to the goldfishes gills and could become very ill or die in the poor water quality.

Personally I much prefer the fishless cycling method so fish or axolotls are not at risk of being subjected to dangerous levels of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. If you are diligent and are able to keep the parameters in safe levels, fish in cycling can be achieved without harming the aquatic life but I don't see why risk it when there is a fishless cycling option available. Is there a cycled tank you could move the goldfish to? If so, use pure ammonia as your feeding source for the cycle instead of the fish (make sure the ammonia does not contain other chemicals). If not, you will need to get the levels down to keep the fish safe. Keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.5ppm and nitrate below 40ppm. Do water changes accordingly with dechlorinated tap water to keep the levels down. Because you have fish in the tank, the cycling process may take longer because you can't let the levels of ammonia and nitrite rise too high without harming the fish. What are you planning to do with the fish once the tank is cycled?

 

[Kochebi]

I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do with them when I'm done. The fish I have are feeder goldfish. I was attempting to do a fishless cycle with pure ammonia as a source for bacteria, but nothing was happening for almost a month, so I switched to fish-in. I also don't want to keep them in the tank, because I'm afraid they could hurt the axolotl, as the one I'm going to get is young, and is only about 3" long.

 

[Skudo09]

Probably best not to keep them in the tank once cycled with the axolotl. They would likely pick on the axolotl's gills. How high was the ammonia level when using pure ammonia? I had the same problem when doing a fishless cycle but I wasn't getting the ammonia high enough. I was advised to dose the tank up to 4ppm and it got it going.

Is there someone you know who might be able to house the goldfish once the tank is cycled? Do you have another tank you could use? Keep doing regular water changes as Jonjey suggested and monitor the levels closely so to prevent the levels getting too high.

 

[Jonjey]

It probably won't touch the axolotls gills.. Well it depends on how big the axolotl is.
How big are the axolotls? Anything over 5" can just eat them and the fish will probably be afraid of the axolotl. If you're getting like 3" little dudes then yeah probably ditch the fish, put them outside for a bird to snatch them up. Is that messed up? Who knows, a lot less messed up than having them eat your little baby axolotls gills.

 

[Kochebi]

@Skudo: I don't remember where the ammonia levels where when I was doing fishless..... And, honestly. I think the levels might be going out of whack because I've been unable to keep up with changing the water the past few days. I've been going back and forth between this house, and another (college life) and I can't even trust my housemates to feed the fish let alone properly monitor and change the water. They can't even feed a cat right. Anyway, hopefully I'm moving out of here soon so I'll be able to keep better track of the water.

@ JonJey: The axolotls at the place I'm getting them from (a small pet store that specializes in reptiles, amphibians, and aquatics) has only young ones, which are about 3" at the biggest. I have a friend who might be able to take the fish, but not sure yet. I might give them to the cat, who knows. No one else seems to feed the cat ever.

 

[Skudo09]

It probably won't touch the axolotls gills.. Well it depends on how big the axolotl is.
How big are the axolotls? Anything over 5" can just eat them and the fish will probably be afraid of the axolotl. If you're getting like 3" little dudes then yeah probably ditch the fish, put them outside for a bird to snatch them up. Is that messed up? Who knows, a lot less messed up than having them eat your little baby axolotls gills.

Goldfish have been known to pick on axolotls gills so I would not risk it. Also they are not a very suitable type of fish to be offered as food for axolotls and would most definitely not be suitable for a 3 inch axolotl.

Put the fish outside for a bird to snatch up?? That is awful... why not see if a friend could take them? Or set up another tank for the fish? Or maybe see if the pet store would take them back? Even being used as feeder fish for other large fish would be more humane than leaving them outside to possibly be snatched up by a bird...

 

[Jonjey]

Goldfish have been known to pick on axolotls gills so I would not risk it. Also they are not a very suitable type of fish to be offered as food for axolotls and would most definitely not be suitable for a 3 inch axolotl.

Put the fish outside for a bird to snatch up?? That is awful... why not see if a friend could take them? Or set up another tank for the fish? Or maybe see if the pet store would take them back? Even being used as feeder fish for other large fish would be more humane than leaving them outside to possibly be snatched up by a bird...

Oh because an axolotl eating them is so different from a bird eating them.
The logic is impeccable.
Yeah, I obviously stated that it depends on the size of the axolotl.

They are feeder fish, they are there to be eaten. If they get eaten by your axolotl, or a bird outside, or this guy's cat, it's all the same. They are being eaten for food by an animal. How ridiculous it is to say that it's somehow awful to feed the fish to a bird but totally fine to feed them to an axolotl. He'll be getting small axolotls, so he needs to do something with the fish, feeding them to a bird outside is so much more humane than a lot of alternatives, like say flushing them? Or just dispensing of them with the use of medicine or a sharp device of some sort... They'd probably get snatched up by birds in a few hours, you can check on them, give them a water change if you feel like it, whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better about it.

 

[Skudo09]

If there was a guarantee a bird snatched them up straight away I would not see a difference between bird or fish eating them. The reason I say it is awful is the lead up to being snatched up by a bird. It would slowly suffocate to death being out of water.. Or what you put in water outside? What if a bird doesn't snatch it up? You either neglect it and let it die from poor water quality or you end up caring for it anyway. In which case might as well get a tank and care for it properly. A feeder fish should not be less valued than any other fish in my opinion. I never said to flush them down a toilet. I would never advise that as an option.

 

[Jonjey]

If there was a guarantee a bird snatched them up straight away I would not see a difference between bird or fish eating them. The reason I say it is awful is the lead up to being snatched up by a bird. It would slowly suffocate to death being out of water.. Or what you put in water outside? What if a bird doesn't snatch it up? You either neglect it and let it die from poor water quality or you end up caring for it anyway. In which case might as well get a tank and care for it properly. A feeder fish should not be less valued than any other fish in my opinion. I never said to flush them down a toilet. I would never advise that as an option.

I would put them in a tupperware with fresh dechlorinated water outside in an open space and check on them daily with 100% water changes til they are all gone. It wouldn't take much effort at all and who knows how long it would take but not everyone has other fish tanks to house them in and they cost like 30 cents I don't think anyone wants to spend a lot of resources on something that they aren't passionate about. If I got an extra axolotl and had no tanks I'd go get a tank for it because I love axolotls, I don't love feeder goldfish. I like fancy goldfish, orandas ryukins etc, those a neato bandito.

 

[Skudo09]

Well that is your personal preference on what types of fish you like to keep. I don't value fish by their price tag and have a "feeder" goldfish as a pet with my other coloured goldfish. I would never consider him less valuable than the other goldfish. This is just another reason why I prefer fishless cycling as a much more humane option. Feeder goldfish are no different to any other fish. They feel stress and pain just like any other fish and still deserve humane treatment. I would still try other options first such as rehoming them.

 

[Kochebi]

Well that escalated quickly.... Anyway, back to the original topic... The ammonia is definitely going down, I'll just continue doing regular partial water changes til the nitrates and nitrites follow suit.

 

[Skudo09]

Sorry Em, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I get fired up easily about animal welfare topics. Anyway, yes, keep up the water changes and monitor the levels closely to keep the parameters in safe levels for the fish. Keep us posted on how it goes.

 

[Kochebi]

@Skudo; That's okay, haha. Update: There is finally no more ammonia in my tank! Now I'm just keeping up on water changes to get the nitrates and nitrites down, and soon I should be able to bring home toothless!! My little alpha axie, hehe. Oh, also, since the nitrate levels are like super high, I'm thinking of adding a few more plants to my tank. As of right now I have a few floating plants, I'm not sure what they are, but I'm not quite sure how long they'll hold up as they've been in the tank through cycling and the fish have been biting at them. Any suggestions?

 

[Skudo09]

That is great! You are on the right track. Keep it going until ammonia and nitrite are both zero and then keep doing water changes to bring the nitrate down below 40ppm . Plants do consume nitrate and may help but you will still need to do water changes to bring the nitrate level down. I had plants whilst cycling my tank and they were fine and are still going strong. Though my axolotls tend to uproot everything so some of my plants basically become floating plants ha ha. Plants that cope in low light are generally the best. I have elodea and anubis on driftwood at the moment but I am hoping to get a few more

 

[Sweetie]

I don't value fish by their price tag ... Feeder goldfish are no different to any other fish. They feel stress and pain just like any other fish and still deserve humane treatment.

I do love your attitude towards feeder fish Skudo. All my 'feeder fish' ended up populating my pond (old swimming pool). One ended up weighing several kilos - a massive blue-black split-tailed guppie-type creature. He died a few weeks ago. But he had a long and lovely life.

 

[Skudo09]

I do love your attitude towards feeder fish Skudo. All my 'feeder fish' ended up populating my pond (old swimming pool). One ended up weighing several kilos - a massive blue-black split-tailed guppie-type creature. He died a few weeks ago. But he had a long and lovely life.

Thanks Sweetie

Sorry to hear your fish passed away. But it sounds like he had a pretty good life!